01/06/1983 - Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
SUBJECT TO APPROVAL
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF THE ADVISORY PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION
EAGAN, MINNESOTA
JANUARY 6, 1983
The regular meeting of the Advisory Parks and Recreation Commission was held
on January 6, 1983 at the Eagan City Hall. Members present at that meeting
were Martin, Thurston, Masin, McNeely, Carroll, Fedde, and Schumaker. Absent
were members Gustafson and Kubik. Also present was the Director of Parks and
Recreation and Systems Plan Consultant, Tim Erkkila.
AGENDA
There being no additions to the agenda, on a motion by McNeely, seconded by
Fedde, with all members voting approval, the agenda for January 6, 1983 was
approved.
MINUTES
On a motion by Carroll, seconded by Thurston with all members voting approval,
the minutes of the special meeting from December 15, 1982 were approved.
DRAFT-GIFT BOOK
The Director of Parks and Recreation explained that a first draft of a gift
book has been prepared by department staff. This gift book has various pur-
poses which the director expanded upon. After further explanation of the
purpose and intent of the gift book, members of the Advisory Commission were
asked to review.and comment. Commission member Thurston commented that while
she agreed with the intent and purpose of the gift booklet she had some con-
cern about the section on life insurance. She indicated that perhaps it might
be withheld until some later time or placed in a different role in the book.
Commission member Masin stated that she had no strong objection to it being
in the booklet but suggested the possibility of subordinating it and giving
it a lesser role. Commission member Martin suggested the City Attorney
review the booklet to see if there are implications for estate planning if
such a gift were pursued. Commission member Carroll indicated that estate laws
have changed dramatically in the last several years and that might be a good
idea. In response to a question, the Director of Parks and Recreation indicated
that distribution would be to organized activity groups such as the Lions,
Lioness, Exchange Clubs and so forth. He also indicated that he would like
to see distribution to neighborhood organizations and other community groups
prior to any wide distribution throughout the community. Commission members
made comments in regards to layout, size of print, re-arrangement of items,
also questioning parts of the gift book draft. 'Commission member Masin
suggested that perhaps a bank or other organized groups would be willing to
donate the cost for publishing and printing the booklet if the Advisory
Commission and City would consent to allowing it to put its emblem or given
recognition for supporting the booklet itself. Commission member Thurston
suggested there be included a paragraph on the possibility of people donating
time to the department for things such as park clean up or garden clubs. She
continued saying that other volunteer services might be solicited for varied
areas within the Parks and Recreation Department.
Minutes - Regular Meeting - Advisory Commission
January 6, 1983
Page 2
Members of the Advisory Commission made other suggestions concerning the doc-
ment, requested the director to down play the section regarding insurance.
The director then stated that he would refine and bring back a second draft
of the document as early as the next Advisory Commission meeting.
COMPOSTED MATERIAL
The Director of Parks and Recreation briefly reviewed for the Advisory
Commission the issue regarding the co-composting of material waste avail-
able from the Metropolitan Waste Control Commission. The director stated
that there are several alternative uses for this product which has shown
some success. He then briefly outlined these varied uses for the Advisory
Commission and concerns of using composted material and possible solutions.
After review, the director responded to a question stating that screening
would be necessary if the material was to'be used as a top dressing. He
felt that this would be necessary to remove any of the large wood chips or
bark pieces which had not fully decomposed. He stated that another possibility
would be for to be picked up with a sweeping operation. Commission member
Thurston "expressed a-concern" of potential odor or health hazard. The director
indicated that he had been assured by the staff of the Metropolitan Waste
Control Commission the odor problem would be slight and for a very short
duration of time of perhaps three to four days'in length. Further, he stated
that much of the sludge which had been co-composted with other materials
was being used at farm sites and being used at other locations including
golf courses and other community parks, and considered safe. Commission member
Fedde suggested it appeared to be a good idea and some experimentation might
be possible in a small area. Commission member Carroll suggested that even
if the co-composted material could not be used for top dressing it certainly
could be used and incorporated into new park sites. In response to a question
regarding the screening and decomposing process, the Director of Parks and
Recreation indicated that this material was not pre-screened by the Metropolitan
Waste Control Commission. He suggested that the staff might be able to rent or
contract this out if it were economically feasible.. While the material was
free, that the cost of any rental equipment and additional man power in handling
may take away from its economical advantage of use as top soil material. He
stated that he had not done any economic analysis of this at this time dependent
upon the commission's response to its usage. After additional discussion by
the Advisory Commission concerning its application, usage and the like the
Director of Parks and Recreation was asked to pursue potential usage of this
material and to provide additional information to the Advisory Commission.
The director commented to the commission that staff would also be exploring
the possibilities of establishing three or four scattered sites in the community
for leaf mulching locations. The purpose of this program would be to allow
residents to bring any leaf or mulch clippings to a designated site for com-
posting. This material would then be mixed with an active agent to speed the
composting process and then the City could allow community residents to take
back some of this material for garden use. Or, the City could utilize it in
its tree planting program. He stated that a concentration of compost material,
particularly from oak leaves was an excellent source of nutritional base for
tree stock and tree nurseries.
Minutes - Advisory Commission
January 6, 1983
Page 3
SYSTEMS PLAN
Systems Plan Consultant, Tim Erkkila was present. He stated that the purpose
of this meeting would be to tie down many of the loose ends, that he was
becoming a little uncomfortable with. Further, he felt that the need to up-
date, prioritize, and identify and to resolve some of these things prior to
any meeting with the City Council, and for him to proceed with,certain
segments of the systems plan.
Relating to ponds and lakes, at the last meeting of the commission there were
several questions and issues raised that required additional information. He
stated the first such item was relative to the use of electric motors on lakes.
He indicated that his research had shown that the largest of the electrical
motors were equivalent to 2 H.P. Generally, these electric motors were used
and designed for trolling purposes and quiet running. He stated that while
there might be some wakes from larger electric motors on small boats, that
these would probably be no worse than any wind related waves. Therefore, he
saw no problem in the utilization of these on City lakes, unless the commission
preferred not to-have them used.
He stated that there was a consideration for trout fishing as a potential re-
source. While he was uncertain how this question came about, the potential
does exist at Blackhawk Lake. Trout fishing is a popular sporting activity
and an enjoyable past time for youths and adults. Real trout puriest could
use fly rods while others could use more conventional methods.. He stated that
trout in a stocked lake could be caught with common bait such as popcorn and
marshmallows at the end of a long pole. He briefly summarized this by saying
that the program could be implemented and may be assisted by the Department
of Natural Resources within the community with some management assistance.
Commission members commented that this would be a unique resource and a oppor-
tunity that should be reviewed seriously.
In regards to a City wide ordinance regulating the utilization and use of ponds
and lakes within the community, Mr. Erkkila stated that such an ordinance
would cover all lakes which are over 22 acres in size. He says that the State
generally recognizes that lakes of this size or larger are considered to be
public waters, and therefore under the jurisdiction of the State and community.
He said that ponds under 2i acres in size, which might be completely surrounded
by private property, may not be applicable to them. He continued saying this
may be a mute issue in that any lake body smaller than 22 acres in size seemed
not to be worthy of concern for intense usage by boats with motors, etc. He
suggested that the City Attorney's office might be contacted in regards to this
issue to see if the ordinance could be adapted to those lake bodies, if.desired.
There were several questions in regards to this issue by the Advisory Commission
seeking clarification. After answering Mr. Erkkila continued saying that the
next question was regarding intensive management. He stated that "intensive
management" would vary from site to site. As an example, on certain ponds
and lakes some type of aeriation program/6 month basis while other locations
may only require it during the winter months to prevent freeze out and winter
kill. He said that the term "intensive management" might suggest to the
Council and community that the City would have to.take some type of positive
management steps . Chairman Martin stated that if ponds and lakes were to be
kept open during the winter, this would attract ducks and'a new philosophical
Minutes - Advisory Commission
January 6, 1983
Page 4
question is then raised regarding the feeding and maintaining these ducks.
Mr. Erkkila stated that he has previously dealt with this issue in other
communities and suggested that the City had two approaches. First, the
City could provide a year around food supply for the ducks to ensure there
well being. Or, they can take action to discourage the feeding of ducks
while open water may be available. He said that if open water were there,
the ducks continued to.stay only if sufficient food were available within
the natural elements. He suggested that there are many ducks which stay
within the area because of open water from such sources as Blackdog power
plant and the like. Commission member Martin commented that he preferred
that the City would not go into a year around food supplementing program
and that if there were to be any open water in the winter, to continue to.
discourage any private feeding during the year or the winter months.
Mr. Erkkila continued, saying that intensive management may mean the kill-
ing of all rough fish before a restocking program. He stated that this
would have to again be site specific and dependent on how far and exactly
what the designation of lakes would be. He suggested some of this would be
covered in the implementation part of the systems plan and dependent on
future actions of the Commission and Council. He stated that there may be
a need for the reshaping of the shore lines along some lakes to enhance or
make use of any fishing docks, walking paths and the like. This may be a
one time situation in order to implement some of these suggested acitivities.
The final issue was does the City have the authority to issue permits or
license boats on its City lakes? It has generally been discouraged by the
State as conflicting with current Department of Natural Resources licensing.
Mr. Erkkila suggested if the City were to do so it would only want to do
so as a means of controlling or limiting the number of boats and access to
those facilities. Secondly, he indicated that if the City were to implement
this procedure, some type of enforcement would be necessitated and may be
cost prohibitive.
The Director of Parks and Recreation stated that an opinion from the City.
Attorney's office had been requested regarding the posting of "no swimming"
on certain ponds and the City's potential for liability. The director indi-
cated that he had conversations with the City Attorney's office in regards
to that opinion which he related to the Advisory Commission members.
Commission member Carroll suggested that the commission make its recommendations
so Mr. Erkkila could proceed with the study, and clarify those concerns that
he may have. Commission member Thurston questioned the impact on the Dakota
County Parks' lakes with any of those ordinance the City may adopt. 1'r.
Erkkila responded that the ordinance could exclude the Dakota County Park
system, if the commission and Council so desire. He cautioned however, that
the City may want to exercise some caution and wish to maintain some control
over those lakes if it feels that the County's intended usage runs counter to
City direction. After discussion, commission member Carroll, seconded by
McNeely that the systems plan, and lakes and ponds ordinance authorize the
use of electric motors and to exclude any size gas motors except for the
Minnesota River. Ponds and lakes currently under the jurisdiction of the
Dakota County Park system allow to establish our own procedures and precedence
for the use of said lakes within the Lebanon Hills Regional Park system. On
Minutes - Advisory Commission
January 6, 1983
Page 5
discussion of the motion, concerning the Dakota County Parks control of
lakes and ponds within the Regional Park, the commission reviewed several
ramifications. Staff was asked to review this issue with the City Attorney
in an effort for the City to reserve its jurisdiction of ponds and lakes
within the regional system. The amended motion was agreed to and seconded
by McNeely, with all members voting in favor.
As it relates to swimming, the Advisory Commission discussed at considerable
length the pros and cons of the terminology of official swimming lakes. It
was agreed by the Advisory Commission to continue the official policy of
the City as being "no swimming'', but to recognize that certain areas are-
used for that purpose. However,.the City will not take any action to enhance
those swimming areas or to subordinate any other potential lake usage to
any unauthorized swimming areas. The Advisory Commission then reviewed other
categories under the "preliminary recommendations" clarifying their actions
of Dedember 2, 1982 and providing additional direction to the systems
consultant, Mr. Erkkila. Each recommendation was duly recorded by the systems
plan consultant for draft preparation into the systems plan.
Mr. Erkkila reviewed for the Advisory Commission several issues dealing with
the trail section. He stated that he has recently completed the first draft
of the trails section and will be reviewing this with the Director of Parks
and Recreation. He stated once that review had been completed it would be
duplicated and distributed to the Advisory Commission and City Council for
their review. He suggested this should be a topic for a special meeting of
the commission.
He stated that he has received, at his request, a letter from the Department
of Natural Resources stating the Department of Natural Resources position
on the use of snowmobiles within Fort Snelling State Park. He explained the
letter indicated that the Park's Master Plan does not now provide for snow-
mobile trails nor are there any plans to modify or change those plans to allow
snowmobile trails within the State park. The letter went on to say that while
changes in any systems plan are possible such changes would have to meet the
concerns of the Fort Snelling State Park's Advisory Commission, which over-
sees the park and provide input to the Department of Natural Resources. Mr.
Erkkila concluded that from this letter and previous conversations with officials
from the Department of Natural Resources and Fort Snelling State Park Manager,
that snowmobiles are not going to be allowed within that system. And, there-
fore, the City might well be wasting any effort in trying to pursue any snow-
mobile trails at this location.
Mr. Erkkila continued saying, as it relates to snowmobiles, that from his analysis
of existing and potential trail systems, it was his conclusion that operations
of snowmobiles north of the Cliff Road would not seem likely within the City.
He stated that this would be clarified further in the draft document and at
the next Advisory Commission meeting.
Mr. Erkkila continued indicating the trails document would show some new off
road trails to link major park areas together. These new segments are ones
that the commission may not have previously reviewed during the Comprehensive
Guide Plan study but would like the commission to consider now.
Minutes - Advisory Commission
January 6, 1983
Page 6
Mr. Erkkila stated that other planned segement elements were in various
states of completion and were progressing. Mr. Erkkila then reviewed the
recreation standard and classification system; Section H of the systems
plan. He reviewed this section for the members stating this was the result
of previous actions by the commission. Mr. Erkkila then explained that
the paragraph relating to the historical information and historical
park sites within the section, may require.some additional attention by
the Advisory Commission. This was due to the fact, at this point within
,the systems plan, there has not been any historical site or additional
emphasis in regards to historical parks. Someone who has this as a special
interest may wish to continue to be alert to these prospects. The Director
of Parks and Recreation indicated that the old City Hall building could be
such a park site because of its historical significance this building may
be included within the park system as a historical facility when relocated.
Mr. Erkkila then distributed, for discussion purposes, a listing of candidate
park sites which remain for site analysis and recommendations. He stated
that the commission had previously selected seven such park sites for pre-
liminary design work and that three remained. Further, the contract agreement
requires the consultant to submit, in written form, recommendations on ten
additional park sites. He indicated that the attached list was a listing
of those remaining park sites which might be-considered for the two categories
of work.remaining. He suggested that because of the lateness of the hour
that members may wish to take this and study it further before making a
recommendation, unless they wished to proceed at this time. Members Thurston
and Martin suggested they would prefer to defer any action on this until a
special meeting or the next meeting with the consultant and Council. The
Director of Parks and Recreation and Systems Plan Consultant related there
concerns for trying to design Blackhawk and Patrick Eagan Parks within the
system plan. Both individuals commented that the intensive amount of acreage
within those sites may preclude a preliminary study, but should be reserved
for indepth studies which would consider vegetation, topographic features,
and other site features in more depth and detail. Members said that they
would act at its next meeting.
Mr. Erkkila then distributed a second document which he stated was a summation
of actions by the Advisory Commission as it related to acquisition and develop-
ment for parks as well as recognition of the adopted standards. In review he
indicated those park sites which would be acquired through acquisition by
purchase or by dedication. He further outlined those-parks that might be
designated for development within a five to ten year time frame. In response
to a question concerning cost, Mr. Erkkila responded that a very-preliminary,
rule of thumb cost number might be used for. each park site by classification.
He then assigned these cost to each of those classifications including trails,
park sites and acquisition by purchase; such cost estimates might be in the
area of five million dollars. He cautioned the Advisory Commission, saying
that this was a very crude number and that many of these park sites may not
be done within that five or ten year time frame and that some of the cost
estimate might be too low. Rather, he suggested that this list will have to
be refined and prioritized within the implementation section of the systems
plan study. But he wished to familiarize the Advisory Commission and keep
it abreast of this data in order to review it prior to the discussion on the
implementation portion of the study.
5
Minutes - Parks Advisory Commission
January 6, 1983
Page 7
Mr. Erkkila stated that the commission had two additional administrative areas
to discuss, the presentation to the public and whether the commission now
felt. a need to meet with the City Council in regards to some of these issues
or to continue on with the trail segment before meeting with the City Council.
Commission member Martin suggested that from what has been presented this
evening that the commission still needed to do additional work on the trail
segments and to narrow down the list of candidate sites for analysis and
recommendations before meeting with the City Council. Commission persons
McNeely and Thurston agreed saying that it would benefit both commission and
Council to define some of this information down to a more concise product.
The commission then discussed how it would make its presentation to the public
as it related to park sites. Mr. Erkkila stated that there was essentially
two methods or approaches. The first approach would include a presentation of
one of the preferred park site drawing for each of those sites, with modifi-
cations explained rather than a redrafted drawing. He stated that it would be
costly for the City to revise those drawings and make a presentation to the
public. Then make a second revision again, based on the public comments. In
the interest of economics, the commission may wish to present only a preferred
site. The other possibility would be to explain what could be done to each
park site without a graphic representation being presented. Those recommenda-
tions combined with the additional input from the neighborhood groups could
then be incorporated into a planned revision. Commission member Martin
suggested that he felt that it was essential to have citizen involvement in
that planning process, before any park development were to take place, and
a public meeting would be required.. Member Thurston stated she was concerned
that if we show the neighborhood group several of the drawings for a particular
site that they would become confused or feel that they were going to get all
of those things that might have been shown. She related the feeling that
many people still believe a concept drawing showing a pool at Rahn Park even
though the drawing clearly stated that this was conceptual possibility and
not a probability for future. She stated she wished to avoid that type of
confusion. There was additional discussion by the commission with suggestions
from commission member Carroll and McNeely as to how those concepts might be
best used. After a lengthy discussion commission members agreed to defer this
discussion and share its considerations with the City Council, to discuss this
issue. At that point Mr. Erkkila indicated that he had no additional business
on the systems plan which to conduct and excused himself for the remainder of the
meeting.
The Director of Parks and Recreation then reviewed with the commission the
accomplishments of its objectives for 1982. He stated that the commission
had completed many of the objectives but was not able to complete the official
naming of all of its parks as previously identified. Chairman Martin stated
that he had requested the director to place this on the agenda and asked the
commission members to provide their input on what they felt their objectives
might be for 1983. He stated that he would like to see the City proceed with
the official naming of as many parks that signs might be constructed for in
1983. Secondly, the continuation of reviewing parks and playgrounds in
other communities. Commission member Masin suggested that the Advisory
Commission may wish to review one particular park for development. The Director
of Parks and Recreation also suggested the commission visit special use
facilities in other communities, relating to such items as pools, tennis
Minutes - Advisory Commission
Janaury 6, 1983
Page 8
courts, ice arenas, archery ranges and the like. Commission members agreed
that this would be desirable item and should be discussed further. Regard-
ing the Teen Program, Chairman Martin recognizing that the commission has
previously identified this as something to do, but he also recognized that
it is very difficult in getting it off the ground. He suggested that a
review of the Burnsville Teen Program be closely watched. The Director of
Parks and Recreation was asked to place this item on the February agenda
for final action by the commission.
DIRECTORS REPORT
The Director of Parks and Recreation reported on the winter programs and
successful registration for skiing, tots and broomball. He related that
the open skating rinks are in generally good condition at this time despite
the poor winter weather for ice rink construction. He stated that because
of the recent rains, the ponds at Cedar and Burr Oaks were not now being
used for skating as they are not safe for equipment to clear the snow. He
stated that there were approximately four to five inches of water on the
ice and that the ponds would probably not reopen until such time as all
water had refroze, allowing staff to clear them.
He continued saying that the contracting of ski grooming of Patrick Eagan and
Blackhawk Parks will be done again by the Dakota County Park system. He re-
lated that this charge was now $45.00 per hour. This cost will be partially
reimbursed from funds remaining from a previous ski trail grant. He stated
this cost has gone up dramatically and the staff will be pursuing alternatives
for grooming the ski trails in the future, with a less expensive alternative.
He stated that a cooperative agreement between Eagan, Apple Valley and Burnsville
might be possible and he would be pursuing that with those communities.
The director then related that there was a serious injury at Carnelian Park
in which a youth playing informal hockey had fallen and struck his head against the hockey boards suffering a concussion. He stated that this youth did'not
have a helmet on at the time of the injury. In contacting the youth's parents,
the parents were positive in the response to the way the warming house attendants,
police and emergency squad responded in handling the situation. The director
went on to explain that the Community Education Department of #196 would be
conducting the summer school for the district in 1983. He stated that he, along
with other parks and recreation directors, met to review potential program
sharing and cooperative efforts in this regard. He stated that while this was
still exploratory a second meeting was being. schedule for later in the month
for additional review.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no other business for the Advisory Commission the meeting was
adjourned at 10:40 P.M.
K.L.V.
Dated:
Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
Secretary