01/20/1983 - Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
SUBJECT TO APPROVAL
MINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING OF THE ADVISORY PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION
JANUARY 20, 1983
Members present were Martin, Masin, McNeely, Carroll. Absent were Gustafson,
Thurston, Schumaker, Fedde, Kubik. Also present were the Director of Parks
and Recreation and Systems Consultant, Tim Erkkila.
Chairman Martin convened the meeting indicating that although a quorum wasn't
present the purpose of the meeting was to review the trails materials as pre-
pared by Mr. Erkkila. No official action could or would be taken.
Mr. Erkkila said he has reviewed and prepared a great deal of information
concerning trails and that the commission could also spend a great deal of
time in review. He said he hoped to give the essential elements and asked
the commission members to bring to his attention their items of concern as
he reviewed the draft. He continued saying that the trails section is broken
down into four elements. The two basic elements include the bike trails and
off road routes connecting parks, the other two elements dealt with snowmobiles
and horse trails.
Mr. Erkkila continued, the first issue concerned snowmobile trails. He stated
that a map was prepared to highlight obstacles or problem areas within the
community. He stated this was from the research done in a field inventory
completed in the summer of 1982. The purpose was to identify topographical
features or other obstacles to safe trail alignments. Mr. Erkkila reviewed
for the Advisory Commission several intersections and trail lengths to illustrate
several problems identified.
He continued saying he and City staff had met with members of the local snow-
mobile group who identified two major goals:
1) Provide linkages to Minnesota Valley Wildlife Refuge and as well as
2) Linkages to a trail system in Lebanon Hills Regional Park.
He indicated that in trying to make these linkages, the number of dangerous
intersections, private driveways, and other obstacles encountered were extremely
difficult to overcome, if not impossible.
He then related two additional pieces of information to the Advisory Commission
for their consideration.
He stated that the Department of Natural Resources identified in an extensive
report in 1978 on snowmobile usage that the average duration or occasion for
snowmobiling was approximately 4.2 to 4.7 hours, and the average trip distance
was 32 miles. Considering this characteristic no combination of trails within
Eagan or combined with that of Lebanon Hills Park would be able to achieve this.
Clearly, the provision of snowmobile trails is a regional, not municipal issue.
Mr. Erkkila then commented on the status of snowmobiling in Fort Snelling State
Park and the Minnesota Valley Wildlife Refuge. Mr. Erkkila stated that a recent
letter from the Department of Natural Resources stated that snowmobiling in the
Fort Snelling Park is not likely. The existing master plans for the park does
not include any provision for there adoption. The likelihood of revisions to
this master plan for inclusion of snowmobiles at any point in the future seems
highly unlikely. The revision and review process to the plan would be an in-
volved and long process which would probably not result in any change to the
current stand.
Minutes - Special Meeting
January 20, 1983
Page 2
Mr. Erkkila continued on saying that in the proposed plan near the Minnesota
Valley Wildlife Refuge a snowmobile trail in Eagan from the western boundary along
the south edge of the wildlife refuge to approximately Cedar Avenue is proposed.
He stated, however, that this was a "potential" snowmobile trail link to a
trailhead and is considered to be a low priority item within the plan. Such
a trail, if developed, would be on the outer limits of the wildlife preserve.
Mr. Erkkila stated that the City of Burnsville, which currently prohibits
snowmobiling within the community, would probably have to approve of the snow-
mobiling before such a plan could be adopted and implemented. He continued
saying that this snowmobile trail will be several years off if ever implemented.
Commission member Carroll questioned the likelihood of the development of a
snowmobile trail considering the problem intrusion of snowmobiles into a
National Wildlife Refuge. Commission member Martin questioned how they would
control snowmobiling in the area, particularly because of the sensitivity of
the wildlife refuge. Mr. Erkkila responded that the. proposed trails would be
on the outer edge of the wildlife refuge and are intended to stay away from
the internal, sensitive part of the park. Mr. Erkkila explained that there
would be a review process before any trail would be implemented.
He questioned that if Burnsville would eventually approve such a trail, along
with other affected communities, wouldn't Eagan too want to support the trail
assuming proper safe guards were adequate.
The Advisory Commission discussed this aspect of the snowmobile trails. Members
were in agreement that the City should support a snowmobile trail in the
Minnesota Valley Wildlife Refuge, assuming approval by other communities.
Mr. Erkkila continued reviewing the policy statement on snowmobiles indicating
that a similar position could be taken in regards to the Lebanon Hills Regional
Park.
He related to the Advisory Commission that trail opportunities may have been
lost, as it relates to snowmobile trails, within the community because many
potential snowmobile trails are now broken because of residential development,
interstate 35-E and because of hazardous intersections. He stated that the
future of snowmobiling in Eagan would be in the Lebanon Hills Regional Park.
He suggested the City try to ensure this and of trying to establish a link
from the park to the trail system south through Rosemount. It would be his
recommendation to ensure such linkage, which he identified on the trails system
map, and for the City to procure an easement or future dedication from Lebanon
Hills Regional Park to the Rosemount boundary.
Mr. Erkkila, in conclusion, commented that with the completion of 1-35 and other
roads that he could not see any opportunities for designating snowmobile
routes or linkage north of Cliff Road. He then reviewed for the Advisory
Commission several routes identified by two members of the snowmobile club
as areas. considered. He reviewed the potential of a trail under the north-
south Northern States Power lines. This trail could only be continued for a
length of approximately two miles and then would have to be continued through
platted lots or private property, where obtaining easements may not be possible.
After a brief discussion on snowmobiles, Mr. Erkkila continued on to the second
trail segment dealing with horses. Mr. Erkkila reviewed the comments and intent
of the draft study as identified through the tactics study. He stated that like
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January 20, 1983
Page 3
snowmobiles, there were certain traffic hazard problems that complicated the
completion of an established trail system. He indicated that, like snowmobiles,
it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, in providing a trail
route north of Cliff. Commission member Masin commented that the City of
Eagan had a certain image as a result of the horse's which enhance its atmos-
phere. Mr. Erkkila stated that he too had recognized this. That it lent
to the community a certain element or image which many residents enjoy. How-
ever, as residential development occurs and the community becomes more urbanized,
the difficulty of developing trails becomes extremely difficult and horses be-
come even more isolated into pastured or private areas. Further, acquisition
and development of these trails would be costly for the City in relationship
to the other needs. These trail uses would probably have a lower priority. Mr.
Erkkila continued saying the extensive amount of trails within the regional
park, coupled with adjacent private facilities provides adequate opportunities
.for those wishing to participate in this activity. He continued saying like
snowmobile trails, the City should not be responsible for seeking these trails
but should support the continued use of trails within the regional park and
in private facilities. Chairman Martin commented that he personally felt that
the City should try to provide for both horse and snowmobile trails to the
extent possible. But that he was seeing now the problem of having isolated
spots for these opportunities and in connecting them. Mr. Erkkila commented
then that in light of other priorities and park system needs that perhaps
to take the lead in securing the necessary easements and clearances for such
trails would be too costly, rather the City might act only in a supportive
role.
There was additional discussion by the commission after which Mr. Erkkila con-
tinued on to bicycle trail routes and connecting routes, saying he had agreed
with the "grid system" for bicycles now planned and the system should work. He
stated that in the appendix of the trail system plan he has inventoried the
trail system indicating potential problems. Of these potential problems, none
could not be overcome with the completion of the system. He identified on a
trail map those trail segments where easements could not now be acquired or
would require on road routes to be signed and striped if the trail linkages are
to be completed. Mr. Erkkila then explained several possible trail corridors
or major links which would link up parks and neighborhoods. The first trail
combined the sidewalk along Covington to Ridge Cliff Park, the proposed Walden
Heights Park to Pilot Knob Road on the east. He stated that this trail could
be continued further west of Ridge Cliff Park and connect the Safari Estates
area and a potential park west of Galaxie. He stated that he and the Director
of Parks and Recreation have reviewed this area and found that such a future
park may be an issue. If the continued development of that area was similar
to that of Safari Estates in size of residential lots, a park may not be necessary.
However, if in the distant future density should increase within the park service
area the City should consider the need for a small park. He stated that this trail
link system would allow the various neighborhoods to be connected and allow
them to gain access to the two planned neighborhood parks as well as the regional
park system. Mr. Erkkila then went on to review a potential trail system.in the
Carlson Lake, Ches Mar and Well Site Park areas. After reviewing the potential
trail alignments he stated that this had yet to be field checked to see if it
was a probability. Commission member Carroll suggested that this trail would
be an extremely difficult route because of the topography for the area. He
stated that another alternative might be considered using Oak Chase as a
connecting route. An alternate route could be used for those areas east of
this street. After further discussion by the commission in regards to this
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January 20, 1983
Page 4
trail section, it was determined that Mr. Erkkila would review further while
doing a field study.
Mr. Erkkila then reviewed a potential trail within the area from Northview
Athletic Fields extending through Patrick Eagan Park to the Windcrest Park
and Community Center site. He extended the trail from Northview Park, north
along the Williams Brothers pipeline to connect up with Windtree and eventually
South Oaks Parks. He stated that this may be a long range possibility, but
it would be desirable to achieve such a linkage. The commission and consultant
then reviewed other park linkage areas for completion. Mr. Erkkila commented
that many of these trail links would be well into the future but the opportunity
to plan and provide for them seemed timely.
After completion of Mr. Erkkila's presentation on the trails system the
commission then began to review in further detail policy statements and comments
made. There was a discussion by the Advisory Commission of existing usage of
snowmobile trails within the community. In response to a question the director
commented that he was aware of several areas in which snowmobiles were not
permitted to go, but where trails were obviously used. He indicated that he
has taken calls in regards to a conflict between snowmobilers and the cross
country skiers. Commission member McNeely commented that at Rahn School, snow-
mobilers were going onto school property. Commission member Martin commented
that couldn't the snowmobile club do more to control these aspects? Commission
member Martin suggested a letter to the club in an effort to try to improve
the policing of the snowmobiles within the community. Mr. Martin continued,
saying that unfortunately just a few people are abusing the ordinance which
makes it worse for those who are abiding by it. The director commented that
he had talked previously with a representative of the snowmobile club in regards
to this and efforts have been extended by them to inform and educate snowmobilers.
The director commented that it was probably the occasional snowmobiler that was
iether unaware or doesn't care about the ordinance, that is causing the
problem. The typical club member is aware of the ordinance and as an intense
snowmobiles is willing to abide by it.
After discussion on this topic, commission member Carroll stated from his
observations and what he has learned through the survey the people have indicated
or placed a high priority on trails. He reaffirmed that the plan study needs
to show destination of trails, in clarity and purpose and prioritize the future
trails and their importance. Commission member Carroll then questioned the
locations and request from school districts to plow walks and trails near
schools and how this might affect long range trails for cross country skiing;
and what trails and at what distances would trails be cleared? Mr. Erkkila
responded that several communities have taken different approaches, but
generally if the trails are not being used for pedestrian purposes it can't
be justified for snow removal. The Director of Parks and Recreation responded
that he had begun a review of other communities to determine what policies,
practices and procedures they are following. He stated there have been requests
from the school dilstricts to plow walking trails, particularly since State aid
.funding for busing has been eliminated or reduced. He stated that he hoped to
have this completed within the next several weeks to be include as part of the
section study. Commission member Martin stated that on Page E-5 of the draft
that the bituminous trails have been indicated as a separate and exclusive use.
He requested that this be changed to "primary use." He stated that because
the trails are used by joggers and others that exclusive use by bicycles does
not seem appropriate. Mr. Martin continued with additional comments pertaining
to the position of the City in forecasting the need for both sidewalk and
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January 20, 1983
Page 5
trails on a street, particularly when it's not now possible because of develop-
ment. Mr. Erkkila responded saying that it would be desirable to have a path-
way on both sides of major streets but this may not always be possible. He
suggested that the City's position might be to reflect that which is desirable
even though it may not be'possible. Mr. Martin commented that he felt the
City should not be placed in the position of trying to meet public demands
of trying to provide both a bike and sidewalk on these street sections just
because we show the desirability of it in the plans. This would require the
City to go back and secure additional road frontage. Members of the commission
agreed with this saying that the trails plan should focus on future acquisition
and development of trails and sidewalks as roadways and development allows.
Commission members Martin and Carroll commented that they had specific changes
or corrections and questions on several pages of the draft report regarding
trails which they had taken notes on. During the next hour of the meeting
those pages were covered and suggestions made by the commission to Mr. Erkkila.
These corrections were noted for revision.
Mr. Erkkila then stated he has prepared an update from the previous meeting
on Ponds and Lakes and that a mini-management program would be developed on
lake types with Barr Engineering. There was one correction from the last
meeting in regards to Schwanz Lake. He indicated that as last proposed
Schwanz Lake was not identified for unauthorized swimming and this should
change to reflect that unauthorized swimming does occur on this lake body.
Both the Director of Parks and Recreation and Systems Plan Consultant commented
on a report from Mr. Colbert regarding sedimentation ponds along 35-E. Members
of the commission expressed their pleasure in seeing that the Department of
Transportation and consulting firm were taking steps to minimize the impact
on the City's storm water basins through sedimentation pond process. Mr.
Erkkila stated it was important to keep this issue in the forefront and to
continue the cooperative efforts on this.
Mr. Erkkila then stated that the special use classification study was now
being worked on. At this time the study had been broken down into major and
minor elements. He stated that from the SCORP Plan and community survey, he
has developed a preliminary list in draft form saying how these use facilities
could be planned and developed. Topic areas include such things as fishing
and support facilities and numerous other categorical issues.
After further explanation on this section of the plan, Mr. Erkkila continued
saying that he would like to proceed with the selection of three sites for
design work and designation of ten additional sites for review and analysis.
Commission member Martin stated that at this point he would like to defer any
action until a full membership meeting could be held. He asked Mr. Erkkila
if this item could be deferred until the February 3rd meeting. It was agreed
that this be placed on the February 3rd agenda for discussion.
Commission members, staff, and consultant discussed briefly the site selection
process in an attempt to narrow the sites down at the February 3rd meeting
for final review and action to be taken at a joint meeting with the City
Council on February 8th.
Minutes - Special Meeting
January 20, 1983
Page 6
Mr. Erkkila again presented a summary on the potential acquisitions in the
park system to assist the commission. He questioned members whether any
elements in the summary they felt were not acceptable or not going in the
direction he should be? He commented that he did not expect the commission
to accept it or reject it in its entirety but wanted some direction to
insure that the continuity of planning was being carried out.
He then distributed to the commission members a brief summary, in paragraph
form, on the alternate plans previously prepared for the seven park sites
selected for design purposes. He stated that this summary was to assist the
commission as it reviewed those plans. He hoped that at the next meeting or
at the meeting with the City Council additional direction could be provided.
Mr. Martin indicated that he would prefer this item be placed on the February
3rd agenda and be included in the packet for review and discussion.
The Director of Parks and Recreation commented that the February 8th meeting
with the City Council would be held at the City Hall. The issues that have
been identified to be placed before the Council include the standards and
classification system, and sites for selection. If time permits the section
dealing with ponds and lakes as well as trail plans would be discussed.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no additional comments or business to conduct the special meeting
of the Advisory Commission was adjourned at 10:00 P.M.
K.L.V.
Dated:
Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
Secretary