03/08/1990 - Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF
THE ADVISORY PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION
EAGAN, MINNESOTA
MARCH 8, 1990
A regular meeting of the Advisory Parks and Recreation Commission was called
to order at 7:00 P.M. on Thursday, March 8, 1990 with the following Commission
Members present: Jack Johnson, Ted Billy, Sandi Wensmann, George Kubik, Shawn
Hunter, John Griggs, and Dick Carroll. Commission Member Michele Swanson was not
present. Staff present included Ken Vraa, Director of Park and Recreation; Dorothy
Peterson, Recreation Supervisor II; John VonDeLinde, Parks Superintendent; Steve
Sullivan, Landscape Architect/Parks Planner; Craig Johnson, Landscape Architect/Parks
Intern; Cherryl Mesko, Secretary.
AGENDA
Shawn Hunter asked that "Permanent Youth Position on Commission" and "Outdoor
Pool" be added under New Business. Ken Vraa asked that "Oak Ridge Park (Willmus
Park)" be added under Old Business. Shawn Hunter moved, Jack Johnson seconded with
all members voting in favor to accept the agenda as amended.
MINUTES FROM FEBRUARY 1, 1990
Page 5 of the February minutes, Paragraph 3, Sentence 2 should read ".....does not
meet the 5% pervious surface...". Page 7, Paragraph 5, Sentence 4 should read
"....depending upon which park site was selected." Page 8, Paragraph 4, second to last
sentence should read, "...bringing parents to participate in this area,...". Page 8 Paragraph
5, Sentence 2 should read, "....originally budgeted for $35,000 which
Dick Carroll moved, Sandi Wensmann seconded with all members voting in favor
to accept the minutes as amended.
CONSENT AGENDA
Shawn Hunter moved, Ted Billy seconded with all members voting in favor to
recommend to the City Council approval of the following:
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GOPHER EAGAN INDUSTRIAL PARK 3RD ADDITION. That this proposal
has fulfilled it's parks dedication requirement according to the Gopher Eagan PD
agreement. That this proposal be subject to a cash trailway dedication.
Chairman Kubik requested that the Carlson Lake Park and Wescott Station Park
plans be moved up on the agenda because of the large number of residents present to
address both these issues.
CARLSON LAKE PARK
Director Vraa introduced Craig Johnson, Landscape Architect, who has been
working on the plans for Carlson Lake Park and has been present at the meetings that
have transpired regarding this park. Ken noted that the Parks System Plan drafted in
1982 outlined the basic elements that were to go into neighborhood parks. Two
neighborhood meetings have been held to discuss what elements would be planned for this
particular park. It was noted that Carlson Lake does not meet the requirements outlined
for a neighborhood park. Carlson Lake, Oak Chase and Well Site parks all serve this
park service area. Ken then turned the meeting over to Craig Johnson.
Craig stated that the design process was started with an analysis of the Park Service
Area and the needs of the areas surrounding the three parks that make up this area.
There are 2,400 families or potential sites in this PSA. Craig showed the Commission and
audience a topography with existing vegetation, summer winds/winter winds, the
relationship of Carlson Lake Park to Oak Chase and Well Site Park as well as the
locations of all these sites. Craig mentioned that some of the objectives in planning this
park included preserving and maintaining the existing woodland, developing activities to
disburse users throughout the park, maintain the aesthetic quality of the park and clean
up and maintain the resources that are currently being used.
Craig displayed Concept 3 for everyone to review. It included an observation area
with trails through the woodland, a fishing dock and a hard play surface. Concept 2
included most of the same components moved to slightly different locations. Concept 1
showed the play area to the southwest corner, maintained trails and observation area. It
was determined after neighborhood meetings that the neighborhood leaned more toward
Concept 1.
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A preferred plan, or master plan was completed to include preservation of the
woodland experience with an observation area and trail system on the west end of the
park. As the trail continues, a bridge deck may be a possibility and the bituminous trail
may traverse the steep slope on that side of the park. The east end would have a fishing
deck parallel to the water where children can fish from with a deck bench for parents to
sit and watch their children, or just relax. The south end wold be open for general play.
There would be a path coming off the lift station trail which would be landscaped. Plant
material would serve as a buffer between homes and the open play area. Craig showed
illustrations of a standard 1/2 court hard surface and play area for pre-school and school
age children. He noted that the observation area would have a bench area to be used for
observation and/or sitting. At the present time there is not a hard court surface in this
PSA, however there is a bituminous court at Carlson Lake Park.
Ken Vraa thanked Craig for his background and explained that one of the issues
was the concern of sound transference from the play area. There is some feeling that
there are not as many children in the area the would use playground equipment since
there is already equipment at Oak Chase Park for their use. The neighbors had wanted
picnic grills but that is an element that has not been included in the master plan.
Jack Johnson asked if the lake level would remain relatively stable to allow children
to fish from the proposed fishing deck. Ken Vraa noted that the bounce in this pond is
high and in the event of a 100 year flood the green space up to the trail would be
affected. This was the reason for placing the trail in it's present location. John Griggs
commented that perhaps a switch back trail would be better than the diagonal trail shown
on the slope. Steve Sullivan noted that the topographic survey had been completed with
the significant trees being located so as to preserve as many as possible. The diagonal
trail seems to preserve the most vegetation. Dick Carroll stated that care must be taken
in installing a switch back trail because of the temptation of short cuts.
Ted Billy asked why several plans had shown docks and then were changed to a
fishing deck. Ken Vraa stated that it was due to the high bounce of the lake. Mr. Kubik
then invited the public to address the Commission.
Stan Smobacken, 1281 Carlson Lake Lane stated that people go to parks for several
different reasons. Some for the children, some for activities and some for atmosphere.
He felt all those needs were met at the three parks offering separate facilities, i.e. Well
Site has skating, Oak Chase has children's activities and tennis and Carlson Lake Park has
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the atmosphere. Mr. Smobacken lives on the south side of the lake and feels this is the
atmosphere side of the park/lake and that it should be preserved the way it is. He
foresees a danger in changing the use of this area for 6-10 year olds with lack of
supervision. He felt the fishing opportunity was sufficient but we shouldn't go too far in
providing play equipment in this area.
Unidentified resident from 1313 Carlson Lake Lane expressed concern for pre-
schoolers in this proposed playground area on the south side feeling if this was more
improved it would pose a temptation to kids. Currently there are kids that slide on the
hill which is the access road to the park. Another concern was the broken concrete
culvert under the water that is tempting for kids.
Paul Soderholm, 1273 Carlson Lake Lane commented that the water in the lake
gets deep relatively quick and is concerned about small children being attracted to this
area.
M. Sharon, 1296 East Balsam shared a concern about the culvert having no guards.
She noted that children go into them when the water is low and felt screens should be
placed over the openings.
Shawn Hunter asked to have the play area identified again. Craig Johnson
explained that there would be plantings surrounding the playground area to buffer that
area from the water. The distance from the front edge of the water to the playground
equipment is approximately 105 feet. Shawn further stated that he was hearing from the
residents that they did not want the hard court surface and playground equipment
primarily because of the draw to the water. Ted Billy asked if the residents objected to
the playground equipment because of the noise rather than safety. Mr. Vraa explained
that although that was a partial consideration, it was expressed by the neighbors that it
wasn't as much a concern as the safety issue.
Jack Johnson commented that playground equipment would act to draw children
away from the water. John Griggs disagreed, saying that kids are drawn to the water and
he understands the concern over this issue. George Kubik stated that planning parks near
water bodies has always been a concern for the Commission but it is very difficult to plan
parks without playground equipment. John Griggs asked if there would be an option to
proceed with the park development plans without the playground equipment and to install
at a later date if needed. Jack Johnson stated that O'Leary Park has playground
equipment close to the lake however the depth of the water isn't as deep as Carlson Lake.
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With this being a greater concern, Jack Johnson stated that if the safety of children around
the water means eliminating the playground facility than so be it. It was noted by the
residents that the lake is approximately 15-20 feet deep but has a fast drop off.
Shawn Hunter asked how much play equipment was provided at Oak Chase Park.
Steve Sullivan responded that it provided for 1/3 of what is typically planned in a park for
playground equipment.
Mr. Kubik noted that the two issues that needed to be addressed are 1) The master
park plan for Carlson Lake Park and 2) Should playground equipment be a part of the
master park plan. Mr. Kubik asked if the hard court surface was to be included. Mr.
Vraa explained that there is a court surface in the park currently and this plan suggests
that it be moved to a new location.
Jack Johnson moved, Shawn Hunter seconded to adopt the master park plan as
drawn with the exclusion of playground equipment. It was also stated that mention be
made of the culverts that are in the lake.
Steve Sullivan commented that he had not heard that playground equipment was
not needed in this park, rather, it was not preferred in this location. He suggested placing
the playground on the north side of the summit; or consider the possibility of relocating
it. John Griggs asked if this would have adequate access for children. Craig Johnson
responded by saying that it was an approximate one-half mile walk from the Carlson Lake
access to the proposed north summit. The accessibility for maintenance, however would
be more difficult. John Griggs suggested that perhaps a switch back trail with the
playground on the top of the hill would work better than the currently proposed diagonal
trail. Craig commented that this could be workable. Ted Billy questioned how realistic
it would be to think parents would go to the top of the hill to access playground
equipment. Mr. Sullivan stated that this is a more remote option than typical but thought
it would be important to look at other plans so as not to eliminate playground equipment
totally. George Kubik commented that the original concept should be kept.
After further discussion, George Kubik reiterated that there was a motion and a
second to accept the master plan with the exclusion of the playground equipment. A vote
was taken with 3 voting for and 4 voting against. The motion did not pass.
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George Kubik moved, Dick Carroll seconded to accept the master park plan as
shown to include play equipment and a hard court surface. John Griggs commented that
the absence of playground equipment doesn't preclude children from playing in or being
attracted to the water. A vote was taken with 4 voting for and 3 voting against. The
motion passed.
Chairman Kubik thanked the residents for taking the time to attend the meeting
and share their comments and opinions.
WESCOTT STATION PARK
Ken Vraa explained that staff has had two neighborhood meetings, one in June,
1989 and one in February, 1990 to review concept park plans for Wescott Station Park.
At the first meeting tablets were handed out for the residents to write what their priorities
were for this park. Ken stated that this is a 33 acre park; a large park for this Park
Service Area. Because of the zoning change to the north of the park by West Publishing
this PSA is one-half the planned size.
Mr. Vraa stated that the issue of water quality relative to this parcel has been
resolved therefore the issue of water quality will not need be addressed at this meeting.
Steve Sullivan explained that the plan done in 1979 for planning purposes showed
extensive active use which included tennis, etc. The neighborhood meeting in February,
1990 provided the neighborhood with three alternatives for concept plans. At the
conclusion of that meeting, there was a general consensus that Plan A was the preferred
plan, but with a few changes.
Plan A included a parking lot with 12 parking spaces which provides access to the
park and trails. Additionally there was a hard surface court, 275 foot radius ballfield and
soccer field. On the top of the knoll was an observation deck, sliding hill and prairie area.
Two picnic areas were provided in addition to a frog catching deck. Plan B was an
overlay ballfield and open play area and this plan makes the pond less accessible. The
playground is interior to the trail rather than near the knoll. Plan C shows no parking lot
with parking in the street. The playground area is the same as Concept A with a small
open play area and soft surface trail. There are more trails provided in this plan and the
frog catching deck is included.
The Master Park Plan presented took into consideration the preference to Plan A
after the February neighborhood meeting. This plan provides for a soccer - open play
area the same as Concept A. This plan also brings the prairie closer to the trails and
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more landscaping has been added around the parking area to buffer the parking lot from
the residential area. A single hard court is provided since it was felt a double hard court
was more than what was necessary.
The major concern of the neighbors at this point seems to be the parking. Steve
explained that in order to mitigate the visual impact of the park 6-8 foot red cedars,
deciduous overstory trees and understory trees would be planned along the access road
and parking lot to provide screening from the neighborhood. He noted that the closest
distance from a house to the parking lot is 210 feet. The distance from the west house
to the access road is 50 feet and from the east house to the access road is 40 feet. Again,
screening would be provided from homes to park and from the park to homes. Steve
commented that the last feedback from the neighborhood was the preference for Concept
Plan A with the deletion of the parking lot.
Mr. Kubik invited the public to address the Commission to address their views.
Mr. Jack Baron representing Richardson Company, stated that when this
development was started the City said the. access to the park would be a path entrance;
that this was to be a "soft" park, wildlife park and would not have hockey rinks or baseball
fields. He stated that this is how they represented the park to the people they sold lots
to and he wanted this information shared with the Commission up front.
Shawn Hunter asked when this development started. Mr. Baron stated it started
in 1979.
Steve Doyle, 3658 Windtree, stated he supported downgrading Plan A to delete the
parking lot.
Jim Marshalla, 3694 Windtree stated that when looking at lots 2-1/2 years ago he
talked to the City regarding Outlot A. He was told the access would be for bicycles and
walkers and that the developers to the north would provide access to the park. His other
concern was for a ballfield with a backstop which would encourage teams to practice at
this park rather than be used for pick-up games by the neighborhood. He prefers this to
be a soft park rather than an active one. If there is going to be vehicular access to the
park it will draw people out of the neighborhood to this park. His preference is for an
open play/non-designated use area. Opening the park up to people out of the
neighborhood would increase traffic through the area thus affecting the value of the
homes.
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Laura Doyle, 3658 Windtree stated that she was speaking for the wildlife habitat
and the aesthetics of the park. She would prefer extending the prairie area and
eliminating the sliding hill. Also she prefers that the bituminous trails not be so extensive
and that the trails be kept out of the west portion of the park which would mean no
picnic area as well as eliminating the figure eight trail. Regarding the entrance to the
park, by putting in a parking lot the people to the south will have their views
compromised and the bituminous surface is too harsh.
Mark LaSalle, 3682 Ridgewood stated he preferred Concept C. The parking lot
is a big concern because with it being the highest point of the park it becomes the focal
point. He feels Concept C is a more downscaled version showing more prairie and
landscaping and prefers more buffering from West Publishing.
John McNamara, 3661 Ridgewood commented that a quiet street was not an area
to access a park. Further, the value of the homes would decrease because of the parking
lot. His preference is for Concept C.
Resident from 3644 Ridgewood Drive stated that she disagreed with Concept C.
She agrees there should be no parking lot but Plan C cuts into the woods a great deal.
Perhaps the neighborhood could revise Plan A. Some of the suggestions would be to
make the soccer field smaller, not use the baseball field for practice and suggest a skating
rink.
Lynn Ocess commented that her greatest concern was for the parking lot and the
lights that would be coming from the cars. By keeping things out of the park it won't
encourage outside use of the park.
John Coldweather, Windtree Circle commented that he liked Concept A and prefers
the parking lot so there won't be parking on the street.
Joanne Jangula, 3676 Ridgewood Drive stated that she was told this park would be
a passive park and she prefers not to have a parking lot. She felt parking on the street
would be more tolerable than parking in a lot.
Richard Jangula, 3676 Ridgewood Drive thanked Steve Sullivan and Ken Vraa for
coming to their home to cover these issues. He noted that the parking lot will be very
visible from his home and prefers that it not be built.
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Resident of 3664 Ridgewood stated she preferred the preservation of the wildlife
area. The neighborhood residents walk the area and the establishment of a parking lot
would bring even more traffic to this serene park. Concern for safety, security and
garbage inherent with a parking lot and the wooded entrance to the park were also
expressed.
Ken Tepeske, 3675 Ridgewood Drive stated he looked to this area to move because
of the quiet nature of the park. His major concern is for the parking lot and the traffic
it will draw on Ridgewood. He understands the City has to put in a park but would like
careful thought given before putting in a parking lot.
George Kubik thanked those present for their concerns and input and identified the
two major issues as the desire to eliminate the parking lot and the need to maintain the
wildlife area. He also stated that the City does not typically comment on the type of
development that will occur in a particular park until it is ready to actually do the
planning for that facility. At that time they consider the input of the neighborhood, which
is being done now, as well as take a look at the Park Service Area a park will support,
keeping in mind the guidelines that are set forth by the Comprehensive Park System Plan.
Ken Vraa thanked the neighborhood residents present and commented that this
neighborhood has been one of the best to work with in respect to planning this park.
They have kept their comments focused and to the point and have been very successful
in making their ideas known. He also thanked the Jangulas for inviting him and Steve to
their home and reiterated that they in fact, do look out directly onto the proposed parking
lot.
One of the questions residents had, Mr. Vraa explained, was the possibility of
access to the park from the west. After much analysis it was felt that the disturbance to
the park would be major and the issue was dropped.
Mr. Vraa further commented that both the ball field and soccer field are smaller
than usual lending their use to younger children or for neighborhood use. He further
stated that when you have people using parks there will be cars. People have usually felt
it was safer to have the cars in a parking lot rather than on the street therefore the plan
for the parking lot was made a part of this plan. It was also felt after neighborhood
meetings that Plan A was the preferred plan rather than Plan C.
Laura Doyle commented that a meeting was held and the 60 people attending
preferred a passive park.
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George Kubik commented that the Commission has always been very concerned for
native prairie and ecosystem preservation as is the case with this park. Shawn Hunter
commented that the plans from 1979 showed the concept proposal for this park to be that
of an active park. Mr. Vraa stated that the concept was based on the possible
development of residential to the north of the property. With the zoning change and
West Publishing expansion there was a decrease in the numbers proposed in this PSA.
Jack Johnson also commented that the change in the access to the westerly side of the
park is not an option at this time.
Shawn Hunter stated that there are not many 30 acre parks that are neighborhood
parks. It is a fact that once the park is developed people will be visiting and using this
park therefore there is a need to provide appropriate and safe parking for those visitors.
Shawn asked what the cost would be to add a parking lot at a later date. Mr. Vraa
responded that that could be an option but the cost for doing work later would be an
increase of 10-40% more than to do it at initial construction.
George Kubik asked if there was not a parking lot what type of access would be
provided. Steve Sullivan responded that the entrance would have more shrubs than
originally planned, but not as many overstory trees since the buffer would not need to be
as large with the lack of vehicular traffic. The Commission discussed no parking directly
in front of homes adjacent to the park entrance. George Kubik addressed the residents
in the audience and asked if this type of access would be preferable acceptable to them.
The residents responded affirmatively.
After further discussion, George Kubik moved, John Griggs seconded that the
master plan be approved as presented with the exclusion of the parking lot and the access
road to be an eight foot bituminous trail. Six voted for and one voted against. The motion
was passed.
WATER QUALITY
John VonDeLinde noted that in February the Water Quality Sub-committee met
to review the draft of the Water Quality Management Plan. The comments from that
meeting are contained on pages 18 and 19 of the packet. John also noted that there was
excellent input from both Dick Carroll and Shawn Hunter who served on this sub-
committee.
After further discussion, Shawn Hunter moved, George Kubik seconded with all
members voting in favor that the draft Eagan Water Quality Management Plan be
approved and adopted by the Advisory Parks and Recreation Commission.
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Ted Billy moved, Sandi Wensmann seconded with all members voting in favor to
recommend the approval of the following:
1. That the Eagan Water Quality Task Force be encouraged to incorporate the
comments and suggestions of the Advisory Parks and Recreation Commission
Sub-Committee on Water Quality prior to the preparation of the final draft
of the Water Quality Management Plan.
2. That the Advisory Park and Recreation Commission recommend to the City
Council, the Eagan Water Quality Task Force, and the Gun Club Lake
Watershed Management Organization, the adoption of the Water Quality
Management Plan, in its entirety, including all of the policies and
recommendations contained within Chapter 4 of the plan.
3. That the findings of the Advisory Park and Recreation Commission be
presented at the public hearing on March 22nd; and that a Commission
member be selected by the Commission to make this presentation.
George Kubik noted that Dick Carroll will attend the public hearing and Shawn
Hunter will be available as an alternate.
TREE ORDINANCE
Mr. Vraa reminded the Commission that this item will be reviewed at the April 5,
1990 meeting.
WILLMUS PARK REVIEW
This item was deferred to the April 5, 1990 meeting.
TRAILS - COUNTY BIKE TRAILS PROPOSAL - AGREEMENT REVISIONS
Director Vraa explained that in 1982 the Dakota County Board of Commissioners,
approved a "Dakota County Trails Plan" for the County. The County Plan was important
for providing trails in other communities. As part of the trails plan, sharing of
construction costs is included. Construction costs are paid in part by the Cities (45%)
where the trails are on shoulders, and the County pays for 100% of off road trails. At
the direction of the County Board,County staff was asked to review the plan with Cities
for possible changes in the County's funding formula and the Joint Powers Agreement for
bikeways in the County. The maintenance of the trails is to be done by the City with the
trail signage also the responsibility of the City.
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The Board has heard from "sophisticated" bike riders that do not like off-road trails,
but prefer paved shoulders. These bikers do not like the separated trails because they
often have to go over curbs at intersections, causing blown tires. Consequently, the Board
is now considering this option.
Directors of Parks and Recreation Departments met recently with County staff to
review the issues relative to the Board's proposal. The Cities' perception is if they share
the cost per lineal mile for construction, the Cities should be getting a cost per lineal mile
for maintenance. Eagan, for example, has only a few County trails left to be constructed.
Some of the concerns expressed included alienating other bike users when you
provide specialized trails for use by specialized bikers. It appears the County Board views
the off-road trails as community trails, servicing only local needs of citizens. The
"sophisticated" bicyclists want trails on roads to be able to travel rapidly between
communities and the County feels that's what they should be provided with and paying
for.
Mr. Vraa noted that the Commission should respond to this plan by making a
recommendation to the City Council at it's March 20th meeting so that the plan and
recommendation can be returned. The County has indicated they would like to hear
from both Commissions and Councils.
John Griggs asked if the County was assuming maintenance of the trails in any of
their proposals. If they were he suggested that the maintenance standards be defined very
clearly. Shawn Hunter stated that based on our maintenance parameters we should be
able to make recommendations on the type of maintenance necessary. John VonDeLinde
added that the maintenance standards could be detailed to include mowing every two
weeks, sweeping every fall and following the sealcoating five year program.
After further discussion, Shawn Hunter moved to have Ken Vraa draft a letter to
the County Commissioners concerning the inappropriateness of shoulder type trails in the
City of Eagan and to adopt the cost sharing formula outlined as 2B. The motion further
stated that maintenance of the trails be provided per the current Eagan maintenance
requirements by the City of Eagan and be reimbursed by the County per the formula.
Ted Billy seconded the motion.
John Griggs questioned the decision to support trails on shoulders if the City did
not want them.
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John Griggs moved, Dick Carroll seconded, with all members voting in favor to
amend the first motion reflecting a change in the cost sharing formula to 2A rather than
2B. All other parts of the motion remained the same. The motion was approved.
NEW BUSINESS
Shawn Hunter brought up the issue of a permanent youth position on the Advisory
Parks and Recreation Commission. He asked that the Commission draft a memo to the
Council to try to get this to occur. Ken Vraa explained that some further research would
need to be done but staff would follow up to see if any other cities are providing this
option. Shawn Hunter asked if this could be placed on the April agenda.
Mr. Hunter asked that some consideration be given to providing for an outdoor
swimming pool. He has been hearing from many residents that there is a need for this
type of facility but asked that this, too, be added to the April agenda.
George Kubik asked about the Happenings item regarding Unisys softball fields.
Ken Vraa explained that Unisys wants the City to maintain these fields, however public
equipment cannot be used to maintain private facilities. There has been some
conversation regarding Unisys turning the fields over to the City to schedule and maintain.
This and other possibilities are still being explored.
CONPAUNITY EVENTS
John Griggs asked that the Commission look at options to provide community
event(s) for the residents of Eagan. He felt it would be a good way to bridge the age gap
and get the whole community involved in an event that would be on-going. He also
commented on the many events that are currently listed in the Minnesota Explorer
showing Minnesota events from 328 communities. George Kubik suggested that this would
be something the Recreation Sub-committee can focus on at subsequent meetings. Ken
Vraa commented that staff would be meeting with the Council shortly and he would be
happy to share this concept with them at that time.
Mr. Vraa reminded the Commission of a special meeting scheduled on March 19,
1990 at 5:00 P.M. to review the park building designs. A reminder memo will be sent to
all Commission members.
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Ken Vraa noted the letter that was received regarding a Tour de Eagan bicycle
race. Ken commented that with the trails in place it would certainly be a possible venture.
Mr. Kubik stated that the Recreation Sub-committee had reviewed this item at their
meeting prior to the Commission meeting and had agreed to follow up on this good idea.
Shawn Hunter commented about the letter of commendation received for Brent
Tait and his good work at Trapp Farm Park this winter.
With no further business to conduct, Shawn Hunter moved, Sandi Wensmann
seconded, with all members voting in favor to adjourn the meeting. The meeting was
adjourned at 11:10 P.M.
SECRETARY DATE