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04/04/1991 - Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF THE ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION EAGAN, MINNESOTA APRIL 4, 1991 A regular meeting of the Advisory Parks, Recreation, and Natural Resources Commission was called to order at 7:00 p.m. on Thursday, April 4, 1991, with the following Commission Members present: George Kubik, John Griggs, Shawn Hunter, Ted Billy, Jack Johnson, Michael Vogel and Deborah Johnson. Commission Members Lee Markell and Dick Carroll were not present. Staff present included Ken Vraa, Director of Parks and Recreation, Stephen Sullivan, Landscape Architect/Parks Planner; Dorothy Peterson, Superintendent of Recreation, John VonDeLinde, Parks Superintendent; Rich Brasch, Water Quality Coordinator; Craig Johnson, Landscape Architect/Park Intern; Dale Runkle, Community Development Director, and Nancy Hammel, Secretary. AGENDA Ken Vraa requested that approval of Minutes of Special Meeting of March 14, 1991, be added to the agenda. John Griggs moved, Ted Billy seconded with all members voting in favor to accept the agenda as amended. MINUTES Regarding March 7 Minutes, Page 9, Paragraph 3 under Highline Trail Corridor should read "The first option shows the run-off coming down". Shawn Hunter moved, Deborah Johnson seconded with all members voting in favor to accept the minutes as amended. Regarding March 14 Minutes, Page 15, Paragraph 7, Sentence 2 should indicate "the buildout of the single family residential lots in the subdivision". Page 19, Paragraph 7, the last sentence should read "He stated he was satisfied that the access points as they are planned are sufficient to handle the traffic levels. Page 20, Paragraph 4, the first sentence should read: "John Griggs stated he was in favor of the park being developed with minor modifications." John Griggs moved, Ted Billy seconded with all members voting in favor to accept the minutes as amended. CONSENT AGENDA Steve Sullivan reported there were no items for the Consent Agenda. PARK CENTER SECOND ADDITION Ken Vraa introduced Dale Runkle, Community Development Director, who brought the Commission up to date on this senior center project. Dale explained that five years ago the H. R. A. and the City of Eagan began looking into a senior citizen facility. A survey determined there was a need in Eagan for a complex of approximately 65 residents by 1991. Those figures have been exceeded at this time. A task force of citizens and City staff looked at a number of sites and decided on the Park Center site which the City acquired last year. The site consists of the westerly 7 acres, including ponding area near Cliff Road, of Park Center Addition. The plan calls for a 65 unit, 3-story building with underground parking. The building will be located on the west side of the site. Approximately 2/3 will be one bedroom and 1/3 will be two bedroom. There will also be a congregate dining room/meeting area provided similar to what the Lakeville Senior Center has. The plan calls for possible future building of an additional 65 units on the east side of the site at a later time. Last winter and fall the parcel was zoned R-4. The preliminary plat and site plan are coming through now. Runkle continued that there would be 21 or 22 outside parking spaces. The H. R. A. claims that outside spaces are not in great demand. There is one space per unit of underground parking in the facility. It was noted that there is a large door on the west corner to facilitate 2 DART buses. The City Council will meet March 16 and the Planning Department would like to get the Council's approval. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 2 The City would like to get construction under way by mid-July. The H. R. A. is looking at three projects through the county. It would be helpful to be able to add this to H R. A./ county bonding. H. R. A. is on a 15 year 2 million dollar funding cycle. In 1981 and 1982, the City floated housing revenue bonds and added 1/8% for senior housing. This brought in $700,000 in revenue and $300,000 in interest totalling one million dollars to help fund this project. Steve Sullivan addressed several issues regarding the senior center. The developer has provided a tree inventory for the parcel. A small swale to the north of the building was changed resulting in saving 11 trees. Few trees will be lost in the second phase building on the east side of the parcel. The orientation, Steve continued, shows the mass of the structure complimentary to Rahn Park. Underground parking conceals the parking. Outside parking is oriented away from the park. The building is located only thirty to sixty feet away, however, additional overstory trees will help buffer the building from the park. The swale north of the building will direct approximately 1.5 c.fs. into the park. This is a minimal amount and will have no impact on the park. With the construction of the road project, the trailway obligation is taken care of. A 6 foot concrete sidewalk adjacent to Park Center Drive will provide a connection to the commercial areas. Regarding the cash park dedication, there has been discussion by the City Council and staff regarding a waiver of fees. Whether the park dedication is included is not known at this time. Dorothy Peterson stated that the seniors are excited about the possibility of having a safe place to live and having a senior center. The proposal indicates a senior center will be available. Staff has looked into the question of a public facility being permitted in R4 and has been advised by the city attorney's office that this is acceptable. The second concern regards the City's philosophy toward the development of a public facility within the senior building. At the March 26 Senior Meeting the Dakota County H. R. A. gave information on the proposed center. In answer to Seniors' questions, yes, the community could use the recreational space the facility provides. Arrangements could be made so seniors could hold meetings in the senior building and presently, the H. R. A. does not manage senior activities. The Rosemount Senior Center is part of their senior housing building. Lakeville and Farmington facilities are separate but run by city recreation departments. Should there be a senior center in Eagan's corporate boundaries? Should the facility be in a senior housing building? What funding responsibilities does the City have? What is the involvement of the Department of Parks and Recreation? To Ted Billy's question of whether or not the community could use the space, Dorothy answered affirmatively. George Kubik added that we have long talked about the need for such a facility. Rich Brasch addressed the drainage of 6.8 acres to three sub-drainage basins. Four acres would drain to AP-50 to remove nutrients and maintain flood storage then discharge to small ponds in Rahn and eventually to Woodhaven Park. The second pond catches an insignificant amount of runoff and the third drainage area, in the corner drains directly to the park but will not affect the park. This development not only met but exceeded water quality standards. George Kubik questioned whether the Planning Commission has reviewed this question. Steve Sullivan assured him that it had. Shawn Hunter questioned if we manage the maintenance or programing of the senior center. Dorothy indicated programming. John Griggs asked whether the senior center would be like a nursing home or for independent senior adults. Dorothy replied it would be an area in which seniors can recreate, partake of congregate dining, bingo, speakers, etc. Mr. Griggs questioned water quality if this development met or exceeded water quality standards and what about erosion control. Rich Brasch assured the Commission that water quality will be monitored after the development has been completed. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 3 Construction site erosion will be controlled with the help of Public Works. John Griggs asked whether or not the contract would include erosion control. Dale Runkle assured the Commission that the building site grading will take this into consideration. Ted Billy shared that this seems like a good location and asked if the terrain into Rahn Park would be accessible to seniors. Steve Sullivan indicated there were some tough grades involved but will look into trail integration into the park. A study has not been done yet. Ted Billy asked if it was conceivable if we could hold our senior programs there. Dorothy indicated that, although the Fire Administration Building is now used, the senior housing building would have a captive audience and still be accessible to the public. Deborah Johnson asked if the residents would be mobile to which Dorothy replied in the affirmative. John Griggs asked what the age group would be. Dorothy replied it would be fifty-five- plus with possible exceptions for handicapped. George Kubik asked Steve to identify the tree stands. Steve indicated the parcel was essentially an oak savannah and pointed out a tree stand on the west side of the parcel with 8" on center to 30" diameter trees. To the right of that near the northern boundary are a half dozen mature oaks. In the northeast section, where the second building may be built in the future, is a half dozen trees that will be lost. In the center of the property near what will be the east-northeast corner of the building is a knob with 6", 10" and 24" trees. Staff feels the developer has tried to save trees. George Kubik questioned whether heavy equipment compaction of the soil would kill these trees and what special efforts could be taken. Steven Sullivan replied that we would mark off the trees and save as many as possible. Snow fence could be put under the drip line of the trees to protect the roots. George emphasized the root structures should be marked so as not to be tampered with. John Griggs wondered whether we have a replacement policy for trees that die a year or two later. Ken Vraa indicated more trees would be put in than would be taken out. Steve Sullivan added that the city is a partner in the development and we have more control. We have a stronger hand in the preservation of trees. John Griggs asked if a tree is lost, will there be an opportunity to replace it. Ken Vraa stated there were no requirements as such. George Kubik said that general policy has new trees being replaced within one year and there is no policy with existing trees but hopefully, there will not be a need. John Griggs questioned the whereabouts of a sidewalk. Steve replied it would be on the north side of Park Center Drive. George Kubik asked if there would be overstory trees and Steve replied positively. Jack Johnson asked Rich Brasch if the AP-50 slopes are relatively steep. After construction will there be substantial damage around the pond and will there be excessive run-off during construction. What type of plant material will be put in to prevent that type of run-off? Rich Brash answered that rooted grass mixtures would be used. He would like to put hay bales or a silt fence at the bottom elevation of the pond to make sure we do not get sediment settling into the pond. Steve Sullivan added that there are quick growth grasses with fibrous roots. There are several mixtures that will work. John Griggs would like to see this taken care of. It is very important from both sediment run-off and visual aspects. Michael Vogel questioned whether a congregate dining/community room would be available in the first or second phase of building. Dorothy Peterson offered that. it is premature to answer that question. Mr. Vogel proposed that the congregate dining area serve dual purposes. George Kubik questioned staff needs for the center. Dorothy Peterson said the community could have a senior center director either full time (40 hours a week) or half time. George Kubik asked if we could recommend that the senior center be approved without making a recommendation. It was recommended that: 1. A senior building should be provided within the Eagan corporate boundaries to provide for the senior citizen needs of the entire community. This is a good candidate for senior center. 2. Senior Center be managed by city recreation staff. George Kubik amended the above by adding that any involvement of City staff should be studied and returneds the Commission. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 4 Ted Billy stated if a senior center is included in the building, it should be designed for both those who live in and out of the building. George Kubik added that it should also be handicap accessible. Dale Runkle indicated that congregate dining is proposed but a senior center has not been brought up. After some discussion John Griggs seconded the motion with all members voting in favor. Ted Billy asked what the parks dedication should be regarding physical landscaping and trails. Ken Vraa indicated it would be based on the units included. If congregate dining could be added, maybe parks dedication could be waived. Ken recommended that the cash dedication requirement be left open-ended. A motion was made to: 1. Preserve the oak stand by revising the grading plan. 2. Landscape plan be revised to provide additional buffer from the park. 3. Developer be responsible for 6' wide sidewalk on the north side from Park Center Drive to Cliff Road. 4. An 8' trail along Cliff Road with City staff reviewing trail link from the senior center to Rahn Park. 5. The project be subject to cash parks dedication with encouragement to developer to develop activities area. It was moved, seconded by Jack Johnson and passed unanimously. BLACKHAWK PARK Director Vraa outlined the information given in addition to the packet and indicated there were representatives who wished to speak. He reminded the Commission of the following items from the March 20 memorandum addressing Blackhawk Park issues brought up at the March 14 meeting. 1. Road access easements are permanent easements from Mentor. 2. The east and west parking lots could only be connected with extensive grading of a 25% incline. 3. and 4. No comments 5. There is no sign program as yet. Signs at primary entrances are appropriate with additional directional signs to the primary entrances. 6. and 7. No comments 8. Phased development is typical. It is unusual to complete a park in a two year cycle. Phasing is done according to a comprehensive master plan so work fits with preceding work. 9. We have addressed and offered cost comparison on bridge versus boardwalk. Staff continues to believe there should be a connection across the lake. With cost differential considered, Staff recommends the floating boardwalk. 10. Regarding the skating rink, staff does not have a preference. 11. No comments. 12. Additional information from the Historical Society regarding history and archeological resources has been handled by John VonDeLinde whose most recent correspondence from Wayne Sames of the Minnesota Department of Trade and Economic Development, with a copy to Dennis Gimmestad of the Minnesota Historical Society. Mr. VonDeLinde read from the letter as follows: The Historical Society did not recommend any further study or surveys of the area. This last point is significant since the Historical Society will normally recommend an archeological and historical survey of an area if it has any reason to believe that important sites might exist, even if there is no existing concrete evidence or file information. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 5 "As far as this office is concerned, the proposed project was reviewed in the same manner as all other proposed Outdoor Recreation Grant projects and there is no reason to question the recommendations of the Historical Society in that regard. On the question of whether Historical Society reviews automatically expire after some specific period of time I can tell you that I have never heard of such a provision." Regarding maintenance, mowing and trail grooming, Mr. Vraa referred to the packet for reading of further information. Winter maintenance of the south access road would not be ideal in the opinion of Arnie Erhart, Eagan's Street Superintendent, but the downward slope does facilitate the maintenance operation. Jerry Rhodes, 1858 Murphy Parkway, Citizens for a Better Blackhawk Park. Mr. Rhodes' objective was to advise the Commission that his group is still alive and active. On a separate sheet provided to the Commission the Citizens' Group started with four requirements and then added twelve requested revisions (also in the packet). After a meeting with Mr. Vraa last Tuesday, they came to a painful compromise. He thanked Mr. Vraa for the time he spent. 1. The tee intersection might be workable. He said that Mr. Vraa had indicated at their meeting it was a good suggestion but added that staff had not gotten sufficient information from Engineering yet. A flatter area of roadway is needed at that intersection and will be looked at. 2., 3. The 1991 map shows both accesses to the park. 4. As a safety review, there are 27 boys and girls on Murphy Parkway. George Kubik added that the Commission shares his concern for the children's safety. 5. Mr. Rhodes would like to move the access SW 20 feet. Rather than get into a long discussion, he added that he would discuss this point later. 6. Mr. Rhodes brought up the Leo Murphy triangle of land bordered by the access, the park and residents' lots. He said Mr. Vraa indicated that the Parks Department is looking at that for future park dedication. 7., 8. Mr. Rhodes stated that the parking lot size and pavilion size would encourage larger groups in the park and pose an encroachment on their properties. 9. Regarding the park hours, Mr. Rhodes believes that Hennepin County Parks close at 10 p.m. and feels that 9:00 p.m. seems plenty late enough. Eleven o'clock is too late 10. The Murphy access should be closed during the winter months. Buses have difficulty picking up the children. Most of the winter activities are going to be some on the west side of the park, therefore, it is going to be difficult to get to those activities from the east parking lot. The park will be used only for a natural hangout. 11. Allow all types of sleds for activities on the hill or have different hills for different activities. 12. No comment. He requests that the Commission continue to listen to the Citizens Concerned for a Better Blackhawk Park. Give them the same thought and consideration as if their homes and investments are tied to that park. Mike Murphy, 3882 Palisade Way. Mr. Murphy represents the Blackhawk Park Association of 14 households with a petition with 173 citizens signatures. Their major objection is that none of the citizenry is aware of the magnitude of the park project. They have retained the Larkin Hoffman Law Firm and introduced Mr. Bill Griffith, a specialist in land use/environmental law, and Mr. Jeff McDonald, a landscape architect. Mr. Griffith informed the Commission that his firm has developed a reputation of balancing land use issues instead of lawsuits. His petitioners support most of the City's plan for Blackhawk Park. Mr. Griffith reiterated history of the Park's development and stated that his people support a reasonable development of the park and protection of the residents. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 6 Many homes have been there for 30 years which is why they are not suggesting a strong configuration of park planning. If park acquisition had come after the neighborhood, more buffering would have been allowed. Maintaining the natural environment is the residents' desire and they do not see that in the present plan. The Palisade access is merely a dead end road that the city acquired. It is ten to twenty feet from the residents' bedroom windows. Compatibility has to be considered. Given the weight of earlier planning, residents were surprised to see a sixty car parking lot outside their homes. Active recreation areas are also fifty feet from their back yards. The tubing hill and warming shelter are three hundred feet from the back yards. Regarding the pavilion areas and parking lots, residents fail to see the need and want downsizing of those areas. Sixty spaces is enough below and twenty spaces adequate up above. The traffic report indicated minimum impact on the intersection and roadways but residents will notice this. A better way to reduce the traffic is to downsize. Mr. Griffith quoted his company's president saying "Don't bring me problems without solutions". He then introduced Mr. Jeff McDonald, Landscape Architect. Mr. McDonald presented his plan based on the use analysis made by the City. He proposed to relocate and resize the pavilion and play areas and thereby help the environment. The pavilion was downsized and buildings separated. The pond will handle all runoff and reduce the rate of stagnation. Satellite picnic and games closer to the parking lot and away from the residents' homes. Plant material already on site will reduce maintenance and evergreens planted next to houses will maintain privacy. Shrub layer between boundary layer and aspens and birch work their way into the park. Pavilion sits along the hill by larger parking lot... the parking lot is shaded to keep cars cooler. Pathways move around play area separating space and making good access to the pavilion. Mr. McDonald stated that the pavilion size, according to the 91 Park Survey, is two times the average size of typical community pavilion sizes in Lakeville and Apple Valley. According to the Park Systems Plan, the description of a community park gives leeway. There are a lot of positives about this program but the residents need to be protected. The park must be downsized. Gunner Isberg, 1528 Blackhawk Ridge Court. Mr.Isberg walked the northern perimeter and talked to people who support the Blackhawk Park Plan. He presented the Commission with a petition with 39 signatures. He urges the Commission to approve and implement the plan. The trail system with the east path is good and a boardwalk is very important. Gravel will give the park a natural look. The trail system will also stop erosion. It would preserve the area on a permanent basis. Rick Day, 1621 Murphy Parkway. Regarding the road into Blackhawk Park, he believes construction would close off some pond drainage and the rusty equipment west of Murphy Parkway may also cause pollution. He does not want to save the park at the expense of the ponds. John Ruggieri, 1455 Blackhawk Lake Drive. Landscape Architect, park planner, also represents Minneapolis Park Board, finalist in St. Anthony Falls Interpretive Center. Surveyed the area and his concern is that he has to drive too far to get his children to a play area. We need lake access from north around and over the lake but it should be accessible by foot. It would be easier for a child to play and slide with good access from the north. Paul Hanson, 3900 Riverton Avenue. Mr. Hanson stated that we have discussed the residents around the park but have not discussed the residents in the park. Dakota County has worked hard to preserve wildlife and the City of Eagan is being too selfish. Mr. Hanson questioned the credibility of Pat Jostad and two specialists who were supposed to be from the University of Minnesota but he could not locate them. Regarding the land swap with Leo Murphy, Mr. Hanson questioned how much money was lost. Ken Vraa interjected that discussion of a land swap was not germane to the park development issue and George Kubik stated that Eagan has been a spearhead with water quality and wildlife preservation. We have to be careful of what we perceive nature to be for it has different definitions to different people. Ken Ische, 3881 Palisade Way. If the Park Commission would put themselves in the position of living on Murphy Parkway or in Palisade or Riverton areas, we would come up with a proposal satisfactory to all concerned. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 7 Brad Allen, 1619 Blackhawk Lake Drive. He understands how the Riverton people feel. His concern is to have boardwalk and trailway system. Young children have started a nature club in his area and they need an entrance to the park and trail access. He objects to the park closing at 9:00 p.m. because it is still light at that time in the summer. Mike McGinn, 1451 Blackhawk Lake Drive, is in favor of a trail around the lake. It is important that the lake be secure because it appears erosion is already occurring. Wildlife should be protected perhaps with an area for humans and an area for wildlife. Regarding policing the area, we need trails to gain access from the north side. Gary Blasberg, 1610 Murphy Parkway. Mr. Blasberg was concerned that the 1991 city map already shows new access from both Murphy Parkway and Blackhawk Lake Drive. George Kubik assured him that the map indicates park boundaries. Marty Welch, 1597 Murphy Parkway, Regarding keeping the park open, he feels it would be a teenage hangout and that the park should close at dusk. Monica Anderson, 1606 Murphy Parkway, questioned if the police reports had been checked. George Kubik replied that that was one of the topics for discussion. After a brief break, the meeting reconvened at 9:14 p.m. Deborah Johnson's opening remarks were that 1) 11:00 is too late to keep the park open. It does take time to get people cleared out after the closing time. 2) Pavilion servicing 250 people that close to a residential area is too large. Her concern is that many people will be disruptive to wildlife. Shawn Hunter said he was in favor of a large pavilion because of a need. John Griggs' concern is that the pavilion for 250 people is too concentrated and perhaps two pavilions of 125 each would be better. Deborah Johnson wants one pavilion accommodte 125 people. George Kubik added, regarding the hours, that we have an eleven o'clock closing in all our parks. That has not proven to be a problem in the parks in the past. John Griggs encouraged comments from the other Commission members. Jack Johnson asked John VonDeLinde how the size compared with Trapp Farm and Thomas Lake. John VonDeLinde replied that these pavilions generally accommodate between 125 and 150 people. Ms. Johnson questioned whether we had the numbers of reservations for larger groups. Mr. VonDeLinde replied, yes, 1990 showed 22 reservations turned down due to them being reserved concurrently. Thirteen were turned down due to size limitations. John Griggs further questioned what groups constituted those requests and VonDeLinde replied churches, local organizations and corporations. John Griggs questioned further if design flexibility is feasible to build two pavilions that could also serve 125 people each. Ted Billy thought that was the original intent. John VonDeLinde discussed the multiple use facility. A number of communities are moving in that direction. Richfield provides for up to 300 people with a movable partition as does Hennepin county parks. John Griggs asked if two separate roof tops had been considered to which Ted Billy replied that that was the original plan. Ted also stated, regarding time, that the eleven o'clock closing could be adhered to and if that creates a problem, it could be addressed later. If the pavilion accommodates 250 people, then we could limit the size that could use it. George Kubik stated that one statistic is that we doubled requests for reservations in the last three years. If 35 parties were turned away, that is one out of 5 we turn away. At the present rate of growth, we would be turning away a lot more. John VonDeLinde discussed use patterns of other communities by paraphrasing his Community Pavilion/Shelter Survey-1991 as found in the Commission's Blackhawk Park Book. All concurred that they should have built larger facilities because community use has increased. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 8 John further added that, as with athletic fields years ago, playing catch up is a difficult thing to do. With the fast expansion of the community, John wondered where we would go as the demand will be there. Ted Billy questioned, given the two designs, whether the bridge would be cheaper to maintain. John VonDeLinde replied that, yes, maintenance would be easier on a fixed bridge. The life expectancy would be twelve to fifteen years. Citing the bridge at O'Leary, there would be very low maintenance. John Griggs inquired what the bridge design parameters were regarding water levels for the hundred year rain event and ice skating. Steve Sullivan stated that the bridge design is according to Exhibit C, made of Corten, and would be located well above the hundred year frequency. Price includes the bridge and footings. Not included is the crane that would place the bridge. John Griggs asked what the height would be with ice underneath to which Steve replied about ten feet. Mr. Griggs stated he was in favor of the fixed bridge because it allows skating and cross country skiing. Michael Vogel, regarding the pavilion, questioned the average size of a reservation. If the pavilion would accommodate multiple groups, he definitely is in favor of it. John Griggs recommends downsizing. Michael Vogel proposed a pavilion serving three groups of fifty each. John VonDeLinde reiterated that the communities he talked to stated they had built too small. Ted Billy proposed a multi-purpose facility that could handle five groups of fifty or one group of 250. Shawn Hunter said the VonDeLinde study speaks for itself. We need a large pavilion. If we delay the pavilion, we'll be the same as we were for athletic fields. John Griggs thought the study made the assumption that we will not be building another pavilion in another park. Shawn Hunter thought a split pavilion is needed. George Kubik felt that was all a part of the design process. Blackhawk is not intended to take all of the pavilion capacity for the city's growth. There are, however, a limited number of parks for large group use. George polled the Commission with results as follows: Deborah Johnson - 150 split facility; Ted Billy 250 multi-purpose; George Kubik 250 multi-purpose; John Griggs 200 split multi-purpose; Michael Vogel 180 split with possible sun shelters through the park for groups of 30 or so for playground users and picnickers; Shawn Hunter 250 multiple use. The average figure arrived at was 210. Chairman Kubik then asked for pros and cons on the park plan itself but first requested information regarding the access from Murphy Parkway. Steve Sullivan replied that the park access is being studied to make it a stop sign and tee access. There is a need for a landing pad at the intersection to facilitate winter starting and stopping without a slope. John Griggs wondered where the proposed shelter should be located in terms of skating on the lake. He said the City might be limiting winter recreation in the park. We have elevation and hills to use for cross country skiing, sliding, walking, skating and lake skating. He reported that Lake of the Isles plowed a 2 acre area which was used by people of all ages. We should locate the shelter to provide skating options for future generations. Michael Vogel shared John Griggs concern regarding the shelter building. He has not heard anything against the trails and would like their development first. He also would like the picnic area at the top of the hill east of the parking lot. It is critical that there be reforestation to insure privacy to the residents. John Griggs said he, too, favored adequate reforestation as planned; the parking lot off Riverton Avenue be adequate but not oversized. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 9 Ted Billy is for reforestation as part of staff's plan. He favored the bridge over the boardwalk but does not favor skating and relocation of the shelter building. There are too many negatives involved including the climate and the fact that encouraging skating on a lake is inviting problems in terms of safety. Deborah Johnson agrees that encouraging skating on the lake is unsafe. George Kubik summarized that controled traffic patterns, reforestation, trail system and bridge are acceptable. Location of park shelter and whether or not to encourage ice skating are questions to be addressed. John Griggs restated the positive and negative points from pages 38, 39 and 40 of the packet concluding with a request for clarification of ice testing location from Rich Brasch. Rich replied that he took the depth measurement on the east third of the western basin. The depth was six to seven inches. Schwanz Lake was 8" and Fish Lake was 18-20". The reason for the thinner ice on Schwanz and Blackhawk might be that they handle a lot of storm water for their size. Shawn Hunter's concerns were safety, the length of the skating season and existing, local skating provisions. John Griggs asked whether the accessility would be better at the bottom or the top of the hill. Steve Sullivan replied that as a dual function building, we should leave the building where it is because the view of the lake is better and parking access is better. Michael Vogel is in favor of putting the shelter at the bottom of the hill. It should be accessible to cross country skiers for a cup of hot cider and should also be accessible to the skaters on the lake which he also favors. John Griggs is in favor of on-lake skating. In response to a question Rich Brasch replied that the issue is whether or not you can get vehicular traffic on the ice. It would be tough to get a 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickup on the lake to groom the skating area. George Kubik asked if this safety would be marginal. John VonDeLinde replied that bringing equipment is critical for the safety of maintenance staff. We do not have conditions conducive to snow removal with a Zamboni/shaver. John Griggs said he favored the shelter building at the bottom. Ted Billy verbalized that we require citizens to fence their swimming pools in their yards for safety purposes. We should, therefore, offer no skating because we cannot have an attendant on duty 16 hours a day. To put a shelter at the bottom would encourage skating. Build the shelter on the top of the hill. Deborah Johnson concurred with Ted Billy. John VonDeLinde said an alternative would be to site a trailer adjacent to the lake. John Griggs stated that we should not ignore the lake skating opportunity. George Kubik said that if there was no safety issue, a trailer could be added in the future. John Griggs asked about the parking lot size. Steve Sullivan replied the Palisade lot would have 65 stalls and the Murphy lot would have 115 spaces. Downsizing the pavilion to 210 would result in a need for 99 stalls. Regarding tree loss at the access point off Murphy Parkway, John Griggs asked how we plan to replace the trees. Steve Sullivan assured him that reforestation relates to screening and buffering and performance oriented trees rather than a "tree for tree". John Griggs asked further what the neighbors could expect. Steve replied that Mentor Development approved a landscape plan. The City will not be replacing with twelve inch trees, rather, standard stock will be used. More trees will be put in than were taken out. George Kubik moved and Shawn Hunter seconded that the Commission recommend to the City Council the plan dated 040491 with the following provisions: 1. Pavilion to hold a capacity of 225 using a multiple/split design. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 10 2. Parking lot be 65 spaces at Palisad,° and 105 at Murphy Parkway 3. Trails are accepted as in the plan. 4. Bridge is recommended across narrow end of the lake. 5. Shelter building on top of the hill 6. Reforestation according to specifications and mindful to foot and vehicular traffic with privacy of the neighbors a high priority. 7. Present Murphy Parkway entrance accepted. Engineering and staff to work together to see if a tee access would be acceptable. John Griggs amended that park closing time of 11:00 should be reviewed and changed if problems exist. The motion passed with George Kubik, Ted Billy, Shawn Hunter and Jack Johnson voting in favor and Deborah Johnson, Michael Vogel and John Griggs voted against. John Griggs noted that the reason he voted against the park was the 225 parking places. He preferred that the number of parking spaces be at the Commission recommended standard of. He does support the rest of the plan. Michael Vogel would have liked to see the parking spaces at 175. Ted Billy retorted that he almost voted no because the number should have been 250. HIGHi INE TRAIL GRADING Steve Sullivan reported that staff has met with Paul Thomas, the engineer for the developer. Pipe scenario will not work because the park pond is not large enough. Another alternate will divert water across Wilderness Run Road to another pond which accommodate the water. That is the preferred plan. Once the Engineering has responded and Tri-land has given its response, it will be brought back to the Commission for review before any work commences. After discussion, it was decided to hold "Signage at City Hall" over till the next Commission Meeting, ARBOR DAY Commission was informed by John VonDeLinde that invitations were forthcoming for the Arbor Day event on April 27. George Kubik then moved and Shawn Hunter seconded that the Commission adopt the Arbor Day Resolution as presented. The motion passed with all members voting in favor. HAPPENINGS Dorothy Peterson reported that both new student interns, Benita Soller and Jules Erickson, were involved with the April Fools Day event, the Beach Party and both Egg Decorating Contests. Jon Oyanagi has been putting league schedules together utilizing a recently purchased software package. This years teams number over 200 in 22 leagues. George Kubik noted the development of Camp Creative, the Nature Camp and almost 3,000 softball players. Dorothy further explained the Nature Camp will take place the second week of August to offer availability to kids in Eagan to take part in a wide variety of nature challenges. The 2-3 day activity at Thomas Lake offers a number of novel ideas such as an excursion of bug collecting followed by eating a Turtle Sundae. ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION MINUTES OF APRIL 4, 1991 MEETING PAGE 11 The Star Gazing program brought out about 100 people for a 7:15 - 9:15 view of the heavens. The astronomer brought 6 telescopes to be used. George was enthused with the possibility of that happening in the new Blackhawk Park. After much discussion, it was moved by George Kubik and seconded by Shawn Hunter, with all members voting in favor, to move the "Park Service Area 21" discussion to the April 18 meeting, to move the Long Range Planning Meeting to May along with the Winter Program Report, the Maintenance Report and Water Quality Report. Rich Brasch added that the Commission would probably see the first research report at the May meeting. Because of its importance, the April 25 Joint Commissions Meeting in Lakeville was not changed. ROUNDTABLE George Kubik reminded the Commission that May starts the visits to the parks and instructed staff to plan accordingly. John Griggs brought up the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra and their desire to discuss the possibility of risk sharing. The standard fee is $10-12,000, but for Eagan they are willing to be in the $6,500 range. The Chamber's Events Coordinator brought up the possibility of them receiving a fee plus a percentage of box office receipts. They prefer a fixed amount and would work with us for $6500. The Activities Task Force will need to meet again soon. George Kubik set that meeting tentatively for 6:15 on April 18. John Griggs will get back to the Chamber and inform Ken Vraa so he can have staff put out a notice. John Griggs will approach the Lions Club when he meets with them April 9 to try to secure funding. Shawn Hunter questioned Dorothy Peterson on the ballfield schedule. The City is at capacity Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and a little less than capacity on Monday and Friday. Neighborhood parks and schools are busy six days a week. Shawn said the Commission might consider developing an athletic complex at the Lexington Diffley site before going ahead on Blackhawk Park. Ken Vraa interjected that we would have time to discuss this at the Long Range Planning Meeting. Shawn Hunter moved and John Griggs seconded to adjourn the meeting with all members voting in favor. The meeting was adjourned at 11:30 p.m. C~-~ 3 I.J. eta Date