06/06/1991 - Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF
THE ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION
EAGAN, MINNESOTA
JUNE 6, 1991
A regular meeting of the Advisory Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission was called
to order at 7:35 P.M. on Thursday, June 6, 1991 with the following Commission Members present: Mike
Vogel, Lee Markell, Dick Carroll, Ted Billy, Deborah Johnson, Jack Johnson, Shawn Hunter and John Griggs.
Commission Member George Kubik was not present. Staff present included Ken Vraa, Director of Parks and
Recreation; Stephen Sullivan, Landscape Architect/Parks Planner; Dorothy Peterson, Superintendent of
Recreation; Paula Nowarlak, Recreation Supervisor; John VonDeUnde, Parks Superintendent; Rich Brasch,
Water Quality Coordinator; Julie Erickson, Intern; Benita Soiler, Intern and Cheryl Mesko, Secretary.
AGENDA
Shawn Hunter asked that items I 1 and 2 (Intern reports) be placed on the agenda immediately
following the Consent Agenda. John Griggs moved, Ted Billy seconded with all members voting in favor
to accept the agenda as amended.
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING OF MAY 2, 1991
Under "Minutes of Regular Meeting of April 4, 1991", Paragraph 3, John Griggs asked that the
sentence read, "....standard of 210. He..." and that Paragraph 4, Sentence 1 should read, ".....willing to be
in the $6,500 range." Jack Johnson moved, Ted Billy seconded with all members voting in favor to accept
the minutes as amended.
CONSENT AGENDA
Ted Billy moved, Jack Johnson seconded with all members voting in favor to make the following
recommendations to the City Council regarding consent agenda items.
A. Kings Wood 5th Addition.
1. Lot 1, Block 1 shall be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. Lots 2, 3 and 4, Block 1 are located within the Blackhawk Planned Development
and have fulfilled their parks dedication.
3. All lots shall be subject to a cash traliway dedication.
B. Burnsville Lumber Company •
1. The proposal be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. The proposal be subject to a cash trails dedication.
C. E-Z Stop of Eagan - Crown Coco Co Inc
1. The proposal be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. The proposal be subject to a cash trailway dedication.
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D. Town Centre 70 11th Addition
1. The proposal be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. The proposal be subject to a cash trailway dedication.
E. Oak Cliff 6th Addition
1. The parcel is located within the Winkler Jackson Planned Development. The parks
dedication has been fulfilled via a land dedication of Slater Acres Park.
2. The Planned Development required the developer to Install trailwway, therefore the
application is responsible for a bituminous trail along County Road #32.
F. Cellular One - Waiver of Plat
1. The proposal be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. The proposal be subject to a cash trails dedication.
TEEN RESEARCH PAPER - JULIE ERICKSON, INTERN
Dorothy Peterson introduced the Commission to Julie Erickson who is completing her studies at
Mankato State. She had expressed an interest in researching teen programming in an attempt to learn what
teens are looking for and to what degree Parks and Recreation can play a part in offering programs to this
segment of Eagan's population. Dorothy continued that this information will provide a valuable resource
to the department for future planning.
Julie Erickson highlighted some of the focus points for her teen research paper which included
Eagan's profile as a community, goals and objectives of the research project, various research of other teen
programs across the US, social change concepts that are pertinent to the molding of a teen program,
recommendations for a possible direction of a program and program Ideas for Eagan Parks and Recreation
staff. It was noted that the focus age group of this particular project is 13 to 15 years of age.
In her research with other teen programmers there were several issues that came out. Spontaneity
needs to be allowed to happen In order for the ever changing needs of teens to be met; Parks and
Recreation departments need to allow for that spontaneity without fear of failure. Teens have needs that
are not easy to define and that Is o.k. Teen Input should be the number one deciding factor In any event
or program. Teens express the need to have mentors or role models to look to; teens want to be heard;
teens are working through the social frustrations of becoming an adult. Teens have limited access to
constructive activities. Teens enjoy their space; they create their own world when they get together. Most
important, both teens and recreational programmers need to realize that there Is a process to building an
excellent teen enrichment program. Process takes, time, patience and energy.
In an Interview with Mike Warter, the owner of Pockets, he stated that he believed that If we cater
to the needs of teens first that the money to run the businesses will come In. He also felt that teens are
floating more so than In the past Most kids really want a direction or a mentor. He continued that when
you talk to "at risk" kids you need to be a non threatening person; not a parent, or a cop, or a teacher. He
has found that in talking to kids In this kind of environment they come around a lot more; not to change
them just to help them think on their own.
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Julie concluded her report with recommendations for Commission and staff to consider when
preparing to program for teens. She noted that the key to a successful program Is flexibility. With that In
mind the recommendations included: Be creative; allow for spontaneity; use a facility that has positive and
Inviting aesthetic values; as a programmer, use the lingo of teens; realize that any program with teens Is a
program that will take time and patience; try new and unique ideas; gently let teens know that the
programmer Is in charge, yet not by use of Intimidation tactics; let teens help with advertising; bring teens
into a program by touching the lives of their family; capture the heart of a teen by helping them develop an
Identify, establish meaningful relationships and make life decisions. Understanding teen minds and allowing
them to grow, allowing them to be Immature, and accepting them for being Immature - these are the
fundamentals of programming.
Shawn Hunter thanked Julie for her extensive, Informative report and commented on the insight this
will provide staff as they look at teen programming. He also commented that It Is unfortunate that the youth
population is segregated by school districts. Jack Johnson commented that Julie's report provided a lot
of issues that need to be explored for teen programming and the need to continue to be creative.
PARK USAGE SURVEY - BENITA SOLLER, INTERN
Dorothy Peterson Introduced Bonita Soller who Is completing her degree at the University of
Minnesota. The research project that Bonita would be presenting to the Commission was a study to
determine the community resident's awareness of currently provided neighborhood parks and programs.
The survey was comprised of 5 new and 5 older neighborhood parks.
Bonita explained that one of the reasons for the survey was to determine the community's usage
of the currently provided neighborhood parks, resources and programs. The neighborhood parks identified
for this study Included Rahn, Woodhaven, Lexington, Highview, Cedar Pond, Bridle Ridge, Kettle, Quarry,
Ridge Cliff and Walnut Hill.
Bonita continued that this study can provide short term, as well as long range planning directives
such as the need for playground equipment, etc. Some of the issues/comments from the survey
respondents included: they liked the playgrounds and/or the location of the park; they liked the picnic areas;
they like Cedar Pond Park because of the pond; they wanted restrooms opened on a regular basis during
the day and evening hours; they wanted drinking fountains available; they felt there were not enough swings
provided; they did not like pea gravel used In playground area and they did not like geese droppings at
Cedar Pond Park. Other comments were that people felt the parks were well maintained; there were
sufficient parks to meet resident needs and most were spending more time In the park system than 2 years
ago.
In summary, recommendations by park users included providing access to bathrooms/drinking
fountains for all day use; provide more benches around playground area; provide more picnic tables to
make picnicking more pleasant and convenient; provide municipal outdoor swimming pool for community
use and provide more infant swings In playground areas.
Shawn Hunter thanked Bonita for her very Informative report. He continued that this Information is
very timely considering the Commission is beginning their long range planning needs for city parks. In
response to Input from residents, Shawn asked why pea gravel was used In playground areas rather than
another material. Steve Sullivan responded that the gravel was self cleaning and provided a safe, resilient
surface, however on the negative side, pea gravel is easy for kids to throw. The cost Is similar to that of
sand. Shawn thanked Bonita again for an excellent report.
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ST. PAUL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA
Dorothy Peterson reminded the Commission that a Community Special Event Committee had been
established to study the feasibility of hosting the St.Paul Chamber Orchestra In a concert at Eagan High
School this fall. It was the consensus of the Committee that this issue should be brought back to the
Commission at this time for their recommendations. Dorothy continued that the background Information
was provided in the memo on pages 15-17 in the packet. The primary concerns that may cause hesitation
to proceed on this project are mostly financial.
John Griggs again reviewed the background of this issue, explaining how this opportunity had come
about and the committee's comments and review to date. He continued that this issue needs to go to the
Council by the end of June, if the Commission so recommends, In order to plan for a September 12, 1991
performance. John explained the role TicketMaster would play in the sale and distribution of tickets for this
event outlining the fees Involved If this option is approved. Dorothy Peterson interjected that If the
Commission and Council approve this plan, the school district could be approached to see if one of their
groups would like to do concessions for the event.
John Griggs stated that Ticket Master normally charges a 3% fee plus 2.5% fee for credit
card/phone orders however they have verbally waived the 2.5% fee. He also suggested that 20-25
complimentary tickets be set aside for dignitaries and that 10 seats not be sold to cover any potential
problems that may arise.
Deb Johnson asked how this event would be advertised. John responded that part of the $6500
fee to the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra included posters and flyers and the Chamber of Commerce has
offered to help get the word out to the community. Dorothy also noted that TicketMaster has a monthly
mailing that would incorporate this September event along with their other offerings.
Shawn Hunter asked the amount of staff time that would be involved in pursuing this project to
which Dorothy responded very little provided TicketMaster handles the ticket sales.
After further discussion John Griggs moved that the following recommendations be made to the City
Council:
1. The City formalize an agreement with School District 196 Community Education to secure
the usage of the Eagan High School auditorium for September 12, 1991.
2. The City enter into a contract with the St.Paul Chamber Orchestra as outlined In a letter to
John Griggs dated January 3, 1991 to take place at Eagan High School on September 12,
1991 at a cost of $6,500 or less.
3. The City enter into a contract with TicketMaster to handle ticket sales based on agreement
terms, conditions and service fees for processing.
4. Specific details to be worked out once approval has been given to proceed.
Ted Billy seconded the motion with all members voting in favor. John Griggs noted the Importance of
bringing this before the City Council in a timely fashion to allow enough time to plan for a September 12,
1991 event.
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UPDATE ON POND JP30.1
Rich Brasch brought the Commission's attention to the Supplemental Report on Pond JP-30.1
beginning on page 19 of the packet. He reminded the Commission that this issue was reviewed on May
2, 1991 and the Commission had requested a supplemental report to address three specific issues. Those
issues are 1) Did the City incur any legal obligation to hold a normal level in Pond JP-30-1 at or near the
natural level of the pond prior to its incorporation into the City's storm system? 2) What additional evidence
Is there to help identify the natural water level in the pond prior to its Incorporation into the storm sewer?
and 3) To what degree might the pond be affected by sedimentation.
Regarding the legal obligation outlined In Issue 1, Rich Brasch asked the Commission to read the
legal opinion provided from the City Attorney Included In both the May and June packets. This opinion
stated that:
"....the City is required to maintain an appropriate water level in the pond with respect to the storm
sewer ponding system. The water level should protect the integrity of the storm sewer pond and
have appropriate free board to prevent damage to neighboring residences. Based on the reports
provided, it appears that that has been the case.
While the City may take into account aesthetic considerations for the neighboring residents, the
City's primary responsibility Is the health and safety of the City and the residents. Thus, the pond
water level should stay as currently established, unless a higher level water is as safe. The facts
provided do not indicate a higher level as safe.
Any change in that position should be made only after approval of the City Councl.'
Regarding Issue #2, Rich explained that DNR Area Hydrologist Pat Lynch was asked to attempt to
determine the natural ordinary high water level of the pond. This is the elevation delineating the highest
water level which has been maintained for a sufficient period of time to leave evidence on the landscape.
The key vegetative form relied upon to estimate the natural ordinary high water elevation for the pond was
a large oak tree at the pond's southwest comer. Based on the calculation method used to determine
ordinary high water levels, the area hydrologist indicated a natural pond elevation of 876.67 feet.
Relative to the sedimentation outlined In Issue #3, Rich explained that core samples were taken at
several locations in the pond Including the middle of the pond and around each of the two Wets.
Interpretation of the cores by the DNR area hydrologist indicates that most sedimentation has occurred
around the inlets with little evidence of excessive sedimentation existing in the middle of the pond.
In conclusion, Rich stated that the technical information gathered seems to suggest a natural pond
elevation of .6 -.8 feet higher than the normal water level of the pond after the storm sewer was Installed.
In addition, sedimentation does not seem to have played a major role In decreasing the depth of water
except around the stormwater Inlets.
Mike Kennedy whose home is adjacent to this pond reiterated that Eagan's Stormwater Management
Plan showed a planned normal water elevation of 878 feet verses the new level of 876 feet after the storm
sewer installation. He contends that the pond was 4 feet deep with no vegetation when he first moved near
the pond and is concerned that because of the change In the water level coupled with dry weather the pond
would be non-existent. He asked that the Commission consider making a recommendation to at least dean
out the areas around the inlets, perhaps dredging it out for a short distance Immediately around the Inlets.
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Jack Johnson asked if there would be access to the pond for dredging and If so, what would the
cost be for doing this type of work. Rich responded that it was possible to access the area but it would be
difficult. One option would be to wait until the pond dried up or have the work done in the winter with a
back hoe. The estimated cost to do this work would be between $10,000 and $21,000 assuming the depth
over half the pond was increased by 3 feet. Jack noted that dredging did not appear to be a realistic option.
Rich reiterated that dredging was possible and if the Commission would be considering that option the issue
of cost responsibility would need to be clarified.
Deborah Johnson asked for clarification of the storm sewer installation and the Impact on water
level. Rich reiterated that the explanation for the discrepancy Indicated an error in the Stormwater
Management Plan calculation because the pond's normal water elevation was taken from a preliminary
grading plan that was incorrect. It is the contention of the consultant that the normal water elevation of 876
shown on the as-builts should be the normal water level Identified in the Plan for Pond JP-30.1.
John Griggs asked if dredging of the pond were to occur is there an estimation of sedimentation
impact over the next several years. Rich Brasch responded that since construction Is nearing completion,
once cattails are removed and if the depth of the pond were to be restored to 3-4 feet, the pond should be
o.k. Ted Billy questioned the risk involved in dredging a pond. Rich responded that ponds of this type
typically have an impermeable material that seals the bottom and if that seal is broken during the dredging
the pond would no longer hold water as well.
Shawn Hunter commented that he did not hear many alternatives open to the Commission. He
continued that under normal conditions ponds tend to fill In over time, particularly whenever there Is
construction immediately surrounding the area. After reviewing the Attorney's opinion, Shawn indicated his
concern for setting a precedent with this case. He felt dredging the pond was not economically feasible and
suggested that the matter be closed and the petition process terminated.
Lee Markell commented that he liked the natural look of the pond and this was just a part of a
pond's natural cycle. He hesitates recommending doing anything further with this pond and did not think
.6 feet increase in the water level would make a significant difference In the appearance of the pond.
John Griggs suggested that the Commission consider other alternatives such as dredging the pond
with the City assuming the costs, splitting the cost with the neighbors, having the neighbors pay 100% of
the costs, or as a last resort, do nothing at all. John stated that if the neighbors are willing to re-claim this
pond, perhaps the City should be willing to do something to help them.
Deborah Johnson reiterated Shawn Hunter's concern for setting a precedent with this decision. Lee
Markell commented that dredging should be the last option considered. Dick Carroll reminded the
Commission that the free board of this pond is below the City's recommendations and should be a strong
factor in reviewing this issue.
After further discussion, Shawn Hunter moved, Ted Billy seconded the motion to terminate the
petition process on Pond JP 30.1 and dose the matter. All Commission members voted in favor of the
motion with the exception of John Griggs who voted against. The motion was passed.
Mike Vogel asked If the City had any regulations regarding neighbors doing work around the pond
to help with the aesthetic value of the pond. Rich Brasch stated this was an unprotected pond, therefore
there are no regulations to monitor this type of action. He continued that If the neighbors wanted to pursue
some dean-up options he would be happy to meet with them to assist during that process. Mike Vogel
commented that a low cost alternative that may be considered would be vegetation management.
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OAK CUFF 6TH ADDITION - WATER QUALITY ISSUES
Rich Brasch explained that this development Is a proposed 7.88 acre commercial development on
the southwest comer of Slaters Road and Cliff Road. This parcel discharges to Pond AP-10, a shallow 3
acre natural pond classified as a nutrient trap. A small lift station located at the southeast comer of this
pond moves the water down drainage to a .5 acre sediment basin where it Is discharged through the storm
water system into a recreational classified pond In Slater Acres Park and eventually is discharged to the
Minnesota River.
This development Is currently in the preliminary plat approval process and must satisfy the City's
water quality dedication requirements as a prerequisite to plat approval. Rich continued that the City may,
at It's own discretion, require the construction of one or more ponds even when such ponds do not meet
the 70% phosphorous removal efficiency criteria. The City shall require such ponds when it Is determined
that they are necessary to maintain the integrity of water quality In downstream recreational classified water
bodies. In this case, the developer shall also be responsible for cash dedication equal to the full Cost of
equivalent land and pond volume needed to reduce phosphorus export to undeveloped conditions.
The development planned at this site includes a gas station, restaurants, retail and car wash. Rich
stated that initially Mr. Colon did not want to do ponding on the site nor did he want to be responsible for
a cash dedication for water quality. It was noted that the City may vary from the provisions of the plan
where the literal interpretation of the policies would result in a substantial Inequitable hardship to the
developer. Economic conditions alone shall not constitute a hardship if a reasonable use for the property
remains. Even if hardship Is determined, a cash dedication equal to the cost of land and pond volume
needed for treatment of the remaining phosphorus load would be required. Mr. Colon met with Rich prior
to this issue being reviewed by the Commission and stated he now agrees to providing on-site ponding.
Rich stated that it is essential to have sufficient lead time in working with developers on proposed
developments. He Is suggesting that he meet with developers on water quality issues 2-4 weeks before the
preliminary plat process to provide sufficient time for developers to respond to these issues.
Shawn Hunter commented that it seemed less efficient to request dedication dollars than to require
building on-site ponding. John Griggs asked If a developer could phase in the construction of on-site
ponding. Rich responded that that scenario would address after construction run-off and would become
a reactive option rather than proactive one.
After further discussion, John Griggs moved, Lee Markell seconded with all members voting In favor
to recommend on-site ponding for Oak Cliff 6th Addition which Is to include a skimmer.
WATER QUALITY - GENERAL UPDATE
Rich stated that Jim Storland had been hired as a part time seasonal to help with the some of the
testing procedures that will need to be completed over the summer. Jim will be working approximately 25-30
hours and joins the department with a very extensive background in this field.
Construction of Pond JP-67, a 2-cell nutrient pond Is nearing completion at Duckwood and
Denmark. This pond has been constructed to handle the run-off of the 25 acre commercial site nearby.
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Mike Vogel commented on the safety issue of having this pond left open with a projected depth of
10 feet. Rich responded that a vegetative fence would be installed around the pond. He also commented
that the estimate for completing this project was $110,000 and the bid came in at $52,000. Jack Johnson
commented on how good the pond looks.
In conclusion, Rich noted that the water quality survey had been mailed with 67% having been
returned. He noted that the University of Minnesota Is donating $4500 in services to analyze the data which
will be provided to the Commission upon completion.
Rich added that a joint school/education program is being prepared for next year and preparation
will begin shortly for the education information that will be provided to the public.
HAPPENINGS
Dorothy Peterson explained that there were no Injuries during the lightning strike at Northvlew
Athletic, however, there was extensive damage to the concession building. She noted that the field lights
are back on line allowing evening games to continue and limited concessions will be operating out of the
west building shortly. John VonDeUnde continued that there was approximately $15-20,000 in electrical
damage alone and the total damage is approximated at $40-50,000.
Dorothy commented on the article in the Chronicle noting the numbers of registrations the summer
programs have generated this year. At this time there are over 3,000 registrations with the department
averaging and additional 100 registrations a day.
PARK CUFF NEIGHBORHOOD
Ken Vraa brought the Commission's attention to a letter received from the Park Cliff neighborhood
requesting a trail link from their neighborhood to Ohmann Park. Ken reminded the Commission that this
issue had been addressed some time ago and has been put on hold since the proposed trail link would go
through a part of Dakota County Park and they have not viewed this as a priority within their system at this
point in time. This is an Issue the City cannot address until it is known what the County will do. Whatever
the timing may be, the trail link will need to go around the golf course which is all within Dakota County Park
property.
DOROTHY LEMAY LETTER
Ken talked to the Commission regarding the letter from Dorothy LeMay requesting the development
of Moonshine Park. He noted that this park is still in a natural state and development has always been
planned to occur upon the development of adjacent property. The only other option would be to acquire
additional land to develop this park; it Is not known if the City Is In a position to acquire additional land for
this purpose. Ken suggested that the Commission look at this issue next month.
COMPLAINTS REGARDING NEIGHBORHOOD PARKS
Ken stated he has received complaints from residents relative to Ridge Cliff, Bridle Ridge and Oak
Chase parks. Their concerns are relative to the use of these park's athletic facilities and the numbers of
people those activities attract. They feel the parking and scheduled use of these parks exceed what the
Intention of a neighborhood park should be. Ken wanted the Commission aware that these residents'
concerns have been expressed to staff. Dick Carroll suggested placing an article In the paper urging safe
and slow driving around these neighborhood parks to help eliminate some of their concerns.
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HIGHLINE TRAIL GRADING UPDATE
Ken Vraa explained that this grading issue has become more of an engineering issue. He continued
that the developer will be coming back with another option showing grading within the Highline Corridor and
in the park. Shawn Hunter explained that the Commission wants to see this Issue come back to them
before any authorization is given to proceed with the project.
ROUND TABLE
John Griggs noted that the water quality Issue of Pond JP30.1 seems to have come to a reasonable
conclusion, however he had hoped that the Commission would have provided more of a leadership role in
reclaiming water bodies. Shawn Hunter stated he felt the message sent was that generally speaking the City
is not going to dredge, however, neighbors have other options they can follow through with. John
VonDeLinde added that there will be limited dollars for capital Improvements and it is Important that the
Commission carefully consider how they will expend those dollars. It would be Important to note that priority
water bodies have been Identified and must be addressed first In regard to water quality issues. Dick Carroll
expressed his concern in setting a precedent with this issue since 99% of the people living around ponds
would then expect to have the water quality of their pond Improved in the same manner. Dick noted the
importance of focusing on the big picture of water quality within the City of Eagan. John Griggs reiterated
that he would like to see this come back on a future agenda to be discussed further.
Mr. Griggs expressed his concern for landscaping at the Northview tennis courts asking If there
would be additional landscaping on the site. Steve Sullivan responded that the landscaping plan for that
facility is planned to be completed within the year.
With no further business to conduct, Mike Vogel moved, John Griggs seconded with all members
voting In favor to adjourn the meeting. The meeting was adjourned at 11:00 P.M.
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