10/03/1991 - Advisory Parks & Recreation Commission
MINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF
THE ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION
EAGAN, MINNESOTA
OCTOBER 3,1991
A regular meeting of the Advisory Parks, Recreation and Natural Resources Commission was called to
order at 7:00 p.m. on Thursday, October 3,1991 with the following Commission Members present: John Griggs,
Shawn Hunter, Jack Johnson, Ted Billy, Deborah Johnson, Lee Markell and Dick Carroll. Commission Member
George Kubik was not present. Staff present included Ken Vraa, Director of Parks and Recreation; Stephen
Sullivan, Landscape Architect/Parks Planner, Dorothy Peterson, Superintendent of Recreation; John
VonDeLinde, Parks Superintendent; Paula Nowariak, Recreation Supervisor; Jon Oyanag'i, Recreation Supervisor
and Cherryl Mesko, Secretary.
AGENDA
Director Vraa asked that Dakota County Trails CIP be added as Item #4 under New Business. John
Griggs moved, Jack Johnson seconded with all members voting in favor to accept the agenda as amended.
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 5,1991
Ted Billy moved, Lee Markell seconded with all members voting in favor to accept the September 5,
1991 minutes as presented.
WAIVER OF PLAT - LAYNE AND SHIRLEY ANDERSON
John Griggs moved, Lee Markell seconded with all members voting in favor to make the following
recommendations to the City Council.
1. That Parcel B be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. That Parcel B be subject to a cash trails dedication.
WESCOTT SQUARE 2ND ADDITION - NEW HORIZON HOMES, INC.
Parks Planner Sullivan noted that the current proposal for Wescott Square 2nd Addition shows a drop
in the number of lots than what was originally proposed. He continued that there are approximately 2.5 acres
of woods within the site which is currently zoned R-3. The developer has tried to focus construction around the
wooded area and a number of oaks and ash will be preserved on the north central portion of the site.
Additionally, retaining walls will be built around some of the vegetation.
Shawn Hunter commented that he was pleased that a significant number of trees are being saved but
expressed some concern for the trees to be preserved during the grading and construction process. Mr. Sullivan
responded that the Engineering Department has made it a condition that snow fencing is to be placed around
the trees being preserved before grading is to begin. Steve continued that if the plans are reviewed conceptually
early in the process there is more opportunity to make changes in the development however there is a conflict
with the land use designation and the desire to save trees. Dick Carroll added that when property is zoned there
is nothing that can be done regarding tree removal unless there is a tree replacement ordinance in place.
After further discussion John Griggs moved, Jack Johnson seconded with all members voting in favor
to make the following recommendations to the City Council:
1. That this plat be subject to a cash parks dedication.
2. That this plat be subject to a cash trailway dedication.
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HIGHLINE TRAIL GRADING UPDATE
Stephen Sullivan reminded the Commission that they had approved a proposal for overland drainage
within the Highline Trail corridor and Trapp Farm Park. The developer has completed the grading and the seed
is down awaiting the fiber blanket to hold it in place. Jack Johnson asked if there was a possibility that the seed
will germinate and then freeze. Mr. Sullivan responded that that was a possibility however the developer has
indicated that should that occur, replanting will take place in the spring. Mr. Johnson commented that he would
like to see a written agreement with the developer stating that the fiber blanket needs to be installed to diminish
erosion problems and in the event the seed germinates and freezes, replanting will be done immediately in the
spring. Ken Vraa stated that staff will initiate a letter to the developer expressing the Commission's concern.
John Griggs stated that the Commission is addressing the same issue as in the past and reiterated his concern
for erosion even with the fiber blanket. Lee Markell asked what type of maintenance guarantee developers
needed to provide regarding sod and seed. Steve Sullivan responded that when sod is laid, the developer is
required to get it to the point of self maintenance. The Highline Trail corridor is not a contractual agreement,
however a letter expressing the Commission's concerns and requirements would suffice.
PARKLAND ENCROACHMENT - BLACKHAWK PARK
Director Vraa explained that Mary and Pierce Vatterot contacted the Department several weeks ago
when an error in the survey of their lot line for their new home was discovered. In preparation for adding
landscaping to their recently constructed home, the Vatterot's realized that the builder of their home was in error
when he determined the property comers, and subsequently they constructed two retaining walls into park
property. The encroachment is triangle in shape and is approximately 20+ feet in width at its widest point. The
Vatterot's are proposing that they acquire that portion of the park which they were led to believe was within their
lot line. Staff's concern has been for the retention of the access upon which the encroachment occurs to ensure
that a trail would be provided to Blackhawk Park. Staff completed a grading and trail plan, provided that
information to the Vatterot's who have met with their builder/landscaper to determine how to reshape and
redesign their property, including the parcel they wish to acquire. Mr. Vraa pointed to page 61 of the packet
showing the existing house, retaining wall, true property line and proposed property line which is the current sod
line. The property the Vatterot's wish to acquire is approximately 22 feet wide at it's widest east/west point and
approximately 12 feet wide at it's widest north/south point. An additional concern of staffs is that if the
Commission approves the sale of this park property to the Vatterots it would be important that the grading for
the trail be completed before the land is purchased.
Mr. Vraa continued that the three options for the Commission to consider included 1) agree to sell the
property desired by the Vatterots, 2) require the builder and owners to vacate the encroached upon area, or 3)
offer an easement to the land owner.
John Griggs asked when the trail was proposed to be installed. Mr. Vraa responded that it would be
done in the spring of 1992. In response to Shawn Hunter's question as to how close the trail would come to
the Vatterot's property, Steve Sullivan responded that this has not been determined as yet and will be dependent
upon final grading to determine where the north/south retaining wall could be installed.
Mrs. Vatterot explained that the maximum height of the proposed retaining wall would be approximately
3 feet to be constructed with wood timbers similar to the existing retaining wall.
John Griggs expressed his concern for the close proximity of the trail access to the Vatterot's property
if the Commission chooses to allow a land sale to them. Dick Carroll noted that discussing the details of the
retaining wall construction was premature considering the Commission has not yet decided if they would enter
into a purchase agreement with the Vatterots. Dick continued that his main concern was for access to the park
and past history shows that all the property planned for trail access is necessary in order to meet the needs of
both the park and the neighbors adjacent to the access. Further, extensive plantings have been done in the past
to buffer adjacent homes from traffic generated at the trail access. Shawn Hunter added that in the past one
of the largest objections by residents immediately adjacent to a park access is the need for extensive buffering
and great care has been taken to provide that in the parks. Mrs. Vatterot stated that if the City did sell them
ADVISORY PARKS, RECREATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMISSION
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PAGE 3
the parcel of land they are requesting they would provide a planting plan, including blue spruce, so as to
adequately buffer the property from the trail. John Griggs commented that in addition to the planting buffer the
City has also tried to maintain a significant land buffer between trails and private property and the planting
buffer alone, as presented, may not be adequate.
Jack Johnson commented that as long as there was sufficient room to access the park, he did not see
a problem with the proximity of the trail to the Vatterot's property.
Mr. Vatterot explained that the primary reason they had selected this particular site for a home was the
potential for a large flat back yard for their children. At the time they purchased the home they were under the
impression that the yard, as it is today, was their property.
Dick Carroll commented that this is an issue between the developer/builder and the homeowner rather
than between the homeowner and the City and the answer to the problem is not to encroach almost half-way
into the planned buffered area of the trail access.
Mr. Vatterot agreed that this problem is not with the City, however, they feel their only options are to
work something out with the City or move. Since they would prefer not moving, they are asking the Commission
for their assistance in trying to come to an equitable solution.
Director Vraa stated that another option for the Commission to consider would be to offer an easement
to the land owner. This option would have the City retain ownership of the land, but allow the Vatterot's to use
that portion of the land that gives the appearance of being in their back yard. This option would not set a
precedent for the City in the sale of the property, but may mitigate the inconvenience now being experienced
by the Vatterots.
Shawn Hunter commented that as critical as park access is, a great deal of consideration needs to be
placed on whether the City should set a precedent by selling park property and, if an easement or license is
issued what impact that will have on future owners of the Vatterot's property.
Jack Johnson reiterated that the sale of this property would be a workable solution in his opinion and
that if there is concern for what type of vegetation is placed within the proposed buffer area a restriction can
be placed on the property making that determination. He did not feel the sale of this property would affect the
aesthetics or functionality of the trail.
John Griggs noted that the western boundary of the Vatterot's property ranges from 1 foot to 22 feet
from the access to Blackhawk Park. His expressed his concern for taking the entire 22 feet into park access,
however, asked the Vatterot's how they would feel about accepting a compromise of 10 feet maximum into the
trail access. Mr. Vatterot stated by reducing the area and adding a barrier that would diminish the size of their
existing yard and they probably would not consider anything less than what they currently have. They would very
much, like to maintain their back yard in it's existing condition and size. Mr. Vatterot then showed a video of
the property in question so that Commission members who had not visited the site could get a better feel for
the actual layout of the property and it relationship to the park access.
The issue of liability to the City was discussed due to the dose proximity of a retaining wall to a park
trail. After extensive discussion, John Griggs moved to deny the proposed lot line purchase as proposed. Lee
Markell seconded the motion with John Griggs, Ted Billy, Deborah Johnson and Lee Markell voting in favor
of the motion. Jack Johnson and Shawn Hunter voted against the motion. The motion passed.
Shawn Hunter thanked the Vatterots for attending the meeting to express their concerns and apologized
that the Commission was not able to come to a conclusion that was satisfactory to the Vatterots.
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SUMMER PROGRAM PLAYGROUND SURVEY REPORT
Dorothy Peterson noted that the last time this particular survey had been completed was in 1979-80.
With different questions arising each year it was felt it was time to get a reading from the community on this
issue again. Of the 228 surveys sent out to parents of Summer in the Park participants, 63 returned their survey
form.
One of the questions asked was whether or not there is a need for a day long playground program. The
results of the survey indicate that generally speaking, the distance a family lives from the park, the number of
children in the family and the ages of child #1 and child #2 do not strongly influence the overall perception on
the part of the respondents that, despite limited evidence of support for a day long playground program, the
weight of opinion is that such a program is not needed.
Another question asked was whether or not a child who comes to Summer in the Park at 1:00 PM (or
9:00 AM) should be required to stay until 4:00 PM (or 11:30 AM). This question was designed to address the
drop in policy of Summer in the Park. The survey results indicate that, generally speaking, the practice of the
playground program being a drop-in activity is a practice approximately half of the respondents support, the other
half are of the opinion that their children have to stay at the park. The equal division of opinion provides no
clear cut course of action on this issue. It appears that case by case monitoring as to which child may or may
not leave the park appears to be required to meet the expectations of the parents of children in the programs.
Ms. Peterson continued that the survey introduced the subject of charging a fee for participation in
Summer in the Park. Participants were asked to respond to the question if a change in city policy introduced
charging a fee for participation in Summer in the Park, what fee would they consider to be fair and equitable
and be willing to pay. In response to that question more than 3/4 of the respondents said that, in their opinion,
they would be willing to pay a fee and designated a dollar amount. The most general dollar amount selected
by the respondents was $10. There were comments from some of the respondents that they liked the fact that
this is a free program. Some felt that even though they could afford to pay a fee there are those that would not
be able to afford it.
Dorothy concluded that the intent of the report is to share information, generate discussion and to think
in the long term regarding current department practice and potential new public policy.
John Griggs commented that there is a need to make provisions for families who cannot afford fees.
Dick Carroll asked what the Summer in the Park program cost per participant. Dorothy Peterson responded
that it is approximately $20 per child. Mr. Carroll suggested that this information may have been helpful to the
respondents and if a fee is instituted, the costs of the program should be covered by those fees.
Mr. Griggs stated that the consensus of the Commission appears to be that a fee for Summer in the
Park could be implemented, however, the City would need to be cognizant of those who cannot afford the
programs so as not to exclude anyone.
Ken Vraa reiterated Dorothy Peterson's earlier comment that the purpose of the survey was to get a
sense of what people wanted from the summer programs and to determine if they were willing to pay for them.
John Griggs thanked Dorothy for the extensive work that went into the survey and the compilation of information
that will prove to be beneficial in both short term and long range planning.
SEASONAL EMPLOYEE TRAINING REPORT
Recreation Supervisor Paula Nowariak began the presentation for training of seasonal employees. Paula
stated that her philosophy in working with seasonal employees is to work together as a team focusing on having
a plan of action well ahead of time. Paula walked the Commission through the application, interview and
training process that occurs for the summer staff positions. During the training sessions they work on initiative
and cooperative games, communication/problem solving and team work along with policy, procedure and safety
issues. Paula continued that the department continues to be very fortunate with the qualified staff which includes
qualified college graduates and certified teachers.
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Recreation Supervisor Jon Oyanagi continued with the training sessions that occur for the winter
recreation staff positions. The initial orientation meeting is approximately 4 hours. The training includes on-site
training so that specific information at each site can be reviewed. The focus for Jon's training session is based
on service effectiveness such as greeting people at the sites, getting to know names of the regular skaters, helping
kids and families, trying to create a warm and friendly atmosphere, exercise common courtesy, be information
givers and show genuine interest in their jobs and the people they serve. Jon continued that this philosophy is
followed through from the interview process through the site follow-up.
Superintendent of Recreation Dorothy Peterson explained the interview/selection process when working
with contractual workers such as tennis, cross-country, dog obedience and golf instructors. Her primary focus
is to look for "people persons" who talk about participants rather than skill. Other characteristics Dorothy looks
for include a sense of humor, knowledge of skills, the ability to describe a "beginner" with emphasis on the
learning process. To that end the department has been very fortunate in obtaining very high caliber instructors
who have remained with the City for several years.
Superintendent of Parks John VonDeLinde addressed the hiring and training of seasonal workers in the
maintenance and forestry division. John explained there were job descriptions for the Commission to review so
they could get a feel for the types of positions and qualifications required for each. One of the hardest issues
to deal with is that non-student employees can work only 67 consecutive days which means there is a constant
on-going recruitment and hiring process. The recruitment process starts with a year-end evaluation of each
employee. From that evaluation specific returning staff are invited back the next season. Fortunately for the
department there is a 60-70% return rate for seasonal staff. Most of the summer maintenance staff are college
age students who must be at least 18 years old to apply. Once individuals are hired, both new and returning
employees are required to go through the orientation process which covers city policies and procedures. Some
of the training techniques used include training tapes for specific jobs such as mowing with a great deal of time
aining.
spent with the employee from recruitment through the final on-the job tr
Director Vraa concluded that every year the training gets better and more fine tuned to make the
working environment a positive one for everyone involved.
Ted Billy commented that he has only heard complimentary remarks about Eagan's parks and their
maintenance. Shawn Hunter added that he too has heard many of the same compliments along with the
exceptional maintenance of athletic facilities in the City. John Griggs commented that he was glad to hear that
the selection of staff is so people oriented. Jack Johnson added that along with maintenance the programs that
Eagan Parks and Recreation offers are exceptional and very well thought of.
DAKOTA COUNTY TRAILS CIP
Director Vraa stated he had received a request for comments on the Dakota County Trails 5-year CIP.
Mr. Vraa reviewed the proposed road improvement projects in Dakota County and their impact to the City of
Eagan. Shawn Hunter asked the status of the cost sharing issue with the county that had been discussed last
year. Mr. Vraa responded that after various cities made a presentation to the County Board there was no change
to the existing cost share policy.
PARKS DEVELOPMENT UPDATE
Stephen Sullivan stated that landscaping has begun near the Northview tennis courts. Fifty spruce trees
have been planted at this time, shrubbery and additional plantings will be done this fall with the completion of
landscape planting to be in the spring of 1993. It was also noted that Northview Park shelter building is nearing
completion from the lightning damage this summer.
Steve continued that the planting plan for the maintenance building is done and Phase I planting will
begin this fall. He noted that residents have requested buffering from the maintenance facility and that has been
taken into consideration in the landscape plan.
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Maintenance forces are currently working on Trapp Farm Park playground which will continue until
frost.
WATER QUALITY
Rich Brasch noted that an agenda was in the packet relative to a water quality workshop that has yet
to be scheduled. Rich asked the Commission members, once they had reviewed the agenda, how much time they
would like to spend in this workshop and also to set a meeting date. He also asked if there were other items
the Commission would like to add to the agenda. Shawn Hunter stated he would like to see 5 year goals so
there will be a gauge to compare what has been done with what was planned to be done. John Griggs wanted
a clarification of the relationship between various state and local agencies and their inter-relationships.
After further discussion, it was determined that Saturday, November 16, 1991, 8:30 AM would be the
date of the Water Quality workshop. Rich added that the Water Quality and Urban Forestry Summary Report
from the Environmental Quality Survey was enclosed in the packet and asked that discussion on this issue be
postponed until the workshop on November 16.
RECREATION PROGRAMS VIDEO TAPE
Recreation Supervisors Jon Oyanagi and Paula Nowariak shared a video tape of some of the recreational
activities underway. These included fall registration at the Municipal Center, 7-man touch football, adult fall
softball, adult volleyball (78 teams this fall), Walk in the Native Prairie at Thomas Lake Park, adult soccer at
Ohmann Park, first day of Tiny Tots, Tiny Tots field trip to an apple orchard, Games Kids Play/Fitness & Fun
and the extensive use of Northview Athletic Fields after school.
HAPPENINGS
Some of the Happenings that were highlighted included Star Gazing which attracted 75-100 people to
Thomas Lake Park; Halloween Spook Trail will be moving from Woodhaven Park to Thomas Lake Park; the
Who Done It Hike in Lakeville was very successful and there continue to be positive comments from those that
were able to attend the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra event.
John Griggs reviewed some of the issues that have been raised and the lessons learned having been
involved with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra event. The first lesson learned is the need for high level
salesmanship and very aggressive advertising if a similar event is proposed in the future. The free advertising
that was offered was not sufficient to market an event of this magnitude. Dorothy Peterson added that there
is also the need to acquire a corporate sponsor for this type of event to help offset the costs involved. Further
lessons learned as outlined by John Griggs included the fact that the City of Eagan could indeed host a high
quality event even though the first try did not generate a great turn out. As he was tracking the daily ticket sales
it was felt that, although they were slow in the beginning, they would increase as the concert date approached.
Unfortunately that did not happen to as great a degree as was anticipated. Mr. Griggs noted that apparently
the word of the concert did not get out as was anticipated therefore another similar event would require a great
deal of salesmanship. John suggested looking at market based ticket pricing versus cost based ticket pricing for
another similar venture as well as to understand that the maximum anticipated dollars the theater can expect
would be approximately $5,000. With some of this information in addition to the lessons learned, it is
conceivable the City could host another such cultural event in the future, Mr. Griggs concluded.
Shawn Hunter expressed the Commission's gratitude and appreciation to John Griggs and Dorothy
Peterson for a job well done in connection with the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra concert. Mr. Hunter continued
that it would be wise to plan to expend $2-3,000 in advertising if another cultural event such as this is planned
for the future.
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In response to a question, Director Vraa stated that Clearwater Park will re-open this winter as a family
skating rink. Mr. Vraa also commented that over 800 people attended the open house at Caponi Art Park.
Those attending were very pleased with what they saw and wanted further information on the future
development, when it would be open to the public, etc.
John Griggs commented that the Carlson Lake deck dock looks great, however he noticed what appears
to be an erosion problem near the dock and asked that it be looked at and addressed.
John VonDeLinde noted that the fence surrounding Field #2 at Rahn Athletic Park has been installed
along with gates that will be lockable.
OCTOBER 26TH PARK TOUR
Director Vraa reminded the Commission of their scheduled park tour on Saturday, October 26th from
8 AM - Noon. Various Minneapolis parks will be visited and it should provide some good insight for the
Commission. A reminder notice will be mailed to all members.
ROUND TABLE
Shawn Hunter asked if an update on the Tree Replacement and Boulevard Tree Planting issue could
be provided to the Commission at their November meeting.
Dick Carroll reiterated his concern for the Vatterot's dilemma but stressed the need for the Commission
to be careful in reviewing these issues. Dick continued that the issue before the Commission this evening left
the City looking like the heavies when in fact the City was the party being transgressed upon. The issue of park
boundaries becomes an important issue such as the case with Trapp Farm Park and Oak Chase Park. Mr.
Carroll noted the importance of homeowners, developers and builders being responsible for correctly surveying
their properties so as not to infringe upon City property as well as the City's need to make sure trail access and
park property are clearly defined.
Lee Markell concurred with Mr. Carroll's opinion and asked if there was a way that the City could
ensure these boundary areas are clearly marked. Mr. VonDeLinde noted that often the corners are marked but
once bulldozers are on the property those markers are often removed. Dick Carroll stated that most of the park
boundaries are non-controversial, however, there is a critical need to address any of those properties which may
have the potential of future problems.
John Griggs expressed an interest in generating interest in on-lake skating in Eagan. He suggested that
the Commission visit some of the skating areas in Minneapolis noting the difference in users. He recognized
the concern for safety issues that will need to be addressed as well.
Mr. Griggs asked for an update on the marquis requested at the Municipal Center to update the
community on an on-going basis. Mr. Vraa responded that this was discussed with the City Administrator and
he has it as part of the budget, however with the major budget cuts expected, it is unknown at this time as to
whether or not this item will be cut.
Shawn Hunter asked to have "Visitors to be Heard" moved up on the agenda on a regular basis.
With no further business to conduct, Lee Markell moved,. Deborah Johnson seconded with all members
voting in favor to adjourn the meeting. The meeting was adjourned at 10:50 PM.
Secretary Date