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11/18/1982 - Advisory Parks & Recreation CommissionMINUTES OF A SPECIAL MEETING OF THE ADVISORY PARKS AND RECREATION COMMITTEE EAGAN, MINNESOTA NOVEMBER 18, 1982 Call to order at 6 :30 P.M. by Chairman Martin; those members present included members. Carroll, Masin and Fedde. Also present was the Director of Parks and Recreation, and Systems Plan Consultants Tim Erkkila and Al Brixius. Mr. Erkkila began by stating that Barr Engineering has prepared and completed the preliminary draft of the pond and lakes study for review by the Advisory Committee. Mr. Erkkila reminded the Advisory Committee of the process used: the selection process, initial analysis of ponds, before continuing. He stated that additional research was done to supplement that which was on file and that this basic research was now compiled. There were several factors that entered into the plan; existing data, the physical features of the lake as well as the City's storm management plan. All of these were considered in the evaluation of the water quality research. Mr. Erkkila distributed the reports saying that there were perhaps ten major findings and several issues identified within the report which he hoped to cover with the committee. Mr. Erkkila continued that the first issue addressed in the report is the findings in regards to power boating within the City. He stated that generally speaking to allow for this type of use you need a water body at least one hundred acres in size. Therefore, it should not be surprising to members of the Advisory Committee that it did not have a resource capable of supporting power boating or water skiing as a recrea- tional opportunity. He suggested that the City should have some type of ordinance governing the use of lakes and he would recommend that no boats or motors be utilized in excess of 6 H.P. on the larger lakes if the City so desire. He indicated he would be covering these accommodations with a graphic representation towards the end of his presentation. He reviewed for the Advisory Committee the criteria for the recommendation that 6 H.P. would be the maximum size, stating that the size of the lake and the implication of speed would he disruptive and have a decadent effect upon the enjoyment of the lake bodies. He continued saying the 6 H.P. motor is a standard size for small fishing and would not present any safety problems by restricting boats to that maximum. In response to a question, he indicated the Advisory Committee may wish to actually adopt something that would limit the horsepower usage to something less thatn this, indicating that the City should not adopt a standard of anything more than this. Mr. Erkkila then reviewed the graphic representation number one, saying that additional measurements might need be taken because of unusual findings. He pointed these out for the Advisory Committee and asked them to make notations of possible changes after additional readings had been taken. In response to a question from committee member Carroll, Mr. Erkkila stated that he did not be- lieve that there were unusual circumstances this past summer that might create any discrepancy in numbers. Rather it seemed there were some unusual readings and therefore he wanted to have them taken again to confirm, or provide some additional information of clarify the data. He continued saying that the methodology used was different which may be a cause for the different readings. He stated one method was established on a grid system while the other was a Advisory Parks F Recreation Committee Special Meeting Minutes November 18, 1982 Page 2 random sampling. Mr. Erkkila continued to the next major topic entitled Sailboating, Canoeing and Rowing. He stated that the major findings indicates that sailboating, canoeing and rowing surfaces should be at least ten acres in size and with water transparency readings of greater than three (3) feet. That McCarthy Lake was the only City lake which meets that criteria in its entirety. How- ever, Blackhawk and LeMay Lakes nearly meet that criteria. Mr. Erkkila stated that while it did not prohibit the City's use of other lake bodies for that purpose, this was the ideal criteria for these uses. Other factors need to be taken into consideration such as water depth, alternate recreational use, configuration of the lake, protection from wind for sailboating purposes. Mr. Erkkila continued that apparently the only water body which would meet the criteria for sailboating would be LeMay Lake. In response to a question from the Advisory Committee, Erkkila indicated that the size of sailboating he was referring to was typically in sun fish class, the one to two person boats. Mr. Erkkila continued saying that the third major plan report had to do with canoeing. He indicated that there were several lakes which generally have the criteria for canoeing, Blackhawk, McCarthy, Fish and Carlson Lakes. The table on page 2 had to do with the computation for surface area, usable depth, on a surface base suitable for both sailboating or canoeing. Using this criteria LeMay Lake would be suitable for eight (8) sailboats and twenty three (23) canoes. However, he continued, while the size of the lake could accommodate that many, he suggested that he would want to adopt a standard for a fewer number. Mr. Erkkila stated that this finding also brings up issue number two which is relative to parking areas and the use of these facilities. He gave an example that normally a parking lot should provide thirty -five (35) to forty (40) spaces, a number of sailboats and canoes the lake could conceivably handle. However, a margin of safety should be maintained with the number of boaters. Therefore, the parking lot should be limited in size to minimize the potential of overcrowding. The issue then, is that generally speaking, lower parking requirements is recommended as a means of controlling overcrowding and over- use of the lake facility. Mr. Erkkila continual with the next finding of the report relative to fishing. He stated that he had previously mentioned to the Advisory Committee that fishing was one of the most understated uses of lakes in the metropolitan area. He indicated that the survey data from the Department of Natural Resources and Metropolitan Council show that while lakes have a number of uses which are desirable, aesthetics such as swimming and boating, the most desirable aspect and why people use lakes is for fishing. He stated that nearly 80% of lake users are there for that purpose. ^"r. Erkkila provided additional background for the Advisory Committee relative to the importance of fishing as demonstrated by the usage of the existing lake bodies in the metropolitan area, saying that fishing alone is more important than all other uses combined on lake surfaces. Because of the importance of fishing to residents, he wanted to make sure that the Advisory Committee understood that it would be doing a great disservice by not looking at the fishing opportunities that would present themselves in the usage of lakes. He stated that he would be placing some weight in emphasis on that opportunity in his recommendations. Advisory Parks Recreation Committee Minutes Special Meeting November 18, 1982 Page 3 Mr. Erkkila continued, that based on the data reports and other findings there are only three lakes in the City that are deep enough to prevent winter killing of fish population. He stated that these lakes might be considered "permanent" fishing lakes which could be managed and administered as such. These lakes include Carlson, Fish and Heine. These three lake bodies are relatively small but deep and could be managed without too much additional work in order to maintain a normal fish population. Mr. Erkkila continued on with "Other Fishing Resources" which was the next finding within the report. He stated that in addition to the three ponds just listed, the City has additional fishing resources, and therefore there could be.two general categories. One could be identified as children's fishing resources, such as Carlson Lake which has been managed for pan fishing by the Department of Natural Resources. Other lakes would include Burr Oak Pond and Schwanz Lake. The second category would be intensively managed lakes. These lakes would be lakes that could be used for fishing, however, they do not provide.sufficient depth to prevent winter -kill. These lakes would in- clude Blackhawk, LeMay and Thomas Lakes. By intensively managing these lakes, including the installation of water aeration systems, the lakes could be stocked and maintained for fishing purposes. Mr. Erkkila responded to several questions from the Advisory Committee regarding the classification of these lakes for fishing purposes, at which time, he identified the next finding within the report entitled "Swimming." Mr. Erkkila stated that the general criteria for providing swimming lakes; stating that the City did not even come close to meeting that criteria. And, consequently did not a facility which he could recommend as being suitable to support a public swimming beach. He continued saying that, the report pointed up the next issue which had to do with the use•of ponds and lakes for informal swimming. Several lake bodies are currently being used for swimming by local residents. These include Burr Oaks, Thomas Lake, Carlson Lake, LeMay and so forth. This issue is relative as to how the committee and the City respond to the wishes of the residents to maintain these areas for swimming. Mr. Erkkila reviewed for the Advisory Committee several alternatives which they could consider for the use of these local "swimming holes such as the ponds and lakes being acknowledged as local swimming holes. However, the City does nothing to further the swimming in these lakes by not developing them any further. Further, the City would not take any steps to prohibit the use of the swimming ponds by local residents. Further, the policy might include that the City not commit funds to the development for swimming, but would if local residents wish to collectively provide their own funding for improvements, the City may or may not become involved. The involvement then might be limited to simply coordination, such as department assisting with the application to the Department of Natural Resources for the provision of providing a small sandy beach area for local residents. Or, the City may adopt a hands off policy and prohibit improvements of existing swimming areas. In response to a question from the Advisory Committee, Mr. Erkkila discussed the issues in- volved with the City's posture relative to the use of the lakes and ponds for swimming purposes. He stated the City's posture in restricting swimming from many of the lakes would be out of concern for their health and well being. As Advisory Parks Recreation Committee Minutes Special Meeting November 18, 1982 Page 4 an example: That Hay Lake from the residents own comments, has a number of leeches, a soft bottom, and is weedy. He stated that the Advisory Committee should think about this and begin to develop ideas and provide direction towards developing a policy. Mr. Erkkila continued on to the next portion of the report relative to the featuring of lakes and trails. Generally, the report would encourage the City to construct some form of trail system either around many of the City's water bodies or a portion of them. Trails should have a public access to them. Mr. Erkkila stated that this would also be a policy statement, recognizing that certain lakes such as Carlson, Hay and LeMay, Quigley and Thomas have residential property which would preclude the construction completing around them. The final area is identified as general recreation. Basically, these would be water bodies which cannot be developed into major recreational assets, but can provide for an aesthetically enjoyable aspect of being by a water body even though water quality may not permit swimming or fishing. Mr. Erkkila stated that the last section of the report had to do with winter uses for lake bodies. In that there are numerous lake bodies that have land features which might make it desirable to have sledding by the lake, such as Burr Oaks, Hurley, and Pitt Lakes. Mr. Erkkila continued that this would need to be studied and reviewed for exact locations to insure safety and other features be considered before making a determination. Mr. Erkkila continued saying that the other issue relative to the lakes in the winter time has to do with preservation of those ponds and lakes for aesthetics and safety of winter users. This may take the context of not allowing for permanent or temporary ice houses on lake bodies. The Advisory Committee might wish to consider not allowing fish house or ice.house facilities on these lakes. This should not be considered to be contrary to have fishing on the lakes, but rather a concern for aesthetics and cleaning of the lake. This does not mean that temporary fish houses could not be allowed on the lake. The public could bring them in and set them up, but by a certain hour of night they must be removed. Mr. Erkkila continued by saying that the City may not wish to permit vehicles on the lakes. He expanded upon this saying that kids may wish to take vehicles out on the lake and do donuts endangering themselves. Mr. Erkkila continued, that with the number of existing City water bodies used for storm water, a proper upstream management program be adopted. This would enhance the recreational value of the lakes used and could maintain or improve upon the recreational purposes desired. He stated that through development water quality is likely to decline, and in some qualitative measure hinder the lakes for recreational purposes. He suggested the implication of the document in the use of lakes and ponds for recreational purposes would be for the City to review the implementation and use of settling ponds for water prior to being discharged into major water basins. Committee member Masin questioned why the City was using the ponds for storm water as obviously harmful to lakes? Committee member Carroll said that if you are at the end of the chain, Advisory Parks F Recreation Committee Minutes Special Meeting November 18, 1982 Page 5 use of the ponds it does not seem as harmful for ponds as storm water collection basins. But, if you are at the other end these ponds do suffer. The utiliza- tion by the City of ponds and lakes for the storm water basin allows them to make the system less expensive. Committee member Masin questioned the use of smaller settling ponds by the City as a means of maintaining water quality. After further discussion, Mr. Erkkila continued that he wished to present and review a graphic representation on the lakes and how they could be used for possible recreational use. These included recreational fishing for children, permanent fishing pond population lake, sailing, canoeing, boats and motors recommendations, boat and vehicle parking, aesthetics and general recreation. Mr. Erkkila then went through each lake body describing the graphic representation, the limitations and the potential for each of the lake bodies. On the conclusion of this presentation the committee was asked for its reactions to the report. Committee member Martin stated that he was in agreement that the City should try to provide fishing wherever it could but he had a personal problem with the use of gas motors even up to 6 H.P. on many of the City's lakes. Committee member Masin stated that she had a major concern with runoff and what is the City going to do about its effects. Mr. Erkkila responded that the major purposes of the ponds and lakes studies within the report would be that the City could now identify ponds that will be used for each purpose and begin to develop strategies which would preserve these resources either through protection or settlement ponds. In response to a question from committee member Carroll, Tyr. Erkkila stated that the Council, Advisory Planning Commission, and staff will need to be cognizant of the plan if it is to be used effectively for park purposes. Chairman Martin interjected that it was important that there be total agreement for use of ponds and lakes for the City to follow through every attempt to enhance and protect these water bodies if we are to use them. There was a discussion on swimming by the Advisory Committee, and recognized that there was some agreement that swimming apparently not be provided except through the local "swimming holes." Members mentioned that the Dakota County Park system would provide swimming at Lebanon Hills Regional Park. It was commented that the size of this facility would be sufficient to handle the needs. Committee member Martin stated that perhaps this would become an argument for the construction of a swimming pool at sometime in the future. Member Carroll stated that he saw no need to allow vehicle access to any of the lakes in the winter. That City lakes were too small for such access and use. There was additional discussion by the Advisory Committee on a number of general topics concerning the ponds and lakes and there potential usages. After some discussion, Mr. Erkkila also gave a brief indication that there was some implications for land acquisition which would successfully implement some of these recommendations. The Advisory Committee then moved on to the trails plan portion of the meeting. Assistant Alan Brixius quickly reviewed for the Advisory Committee the existing trails plan that has been adopted. He stated that the existing trails plan was basically on a grid system for bicycles, but with certain areas for additional right -of -way for other usages. He stated bicycle trails plan was specifically Advisory Parks F, Recreation Committee Minutes Special Meeting November 18, 1982 Page 6 developed with the intent to connect destinations and was based on road right -of -ways and /or future road right -of -ways to be acquired. He stated however, that there are certain identifiable factors which had limitations on the trails overall effectiveness which included the con- struction of the interstate system, lack of sufficient shoulder width on some road way sections, physical limitation of several off street trail areas, and numerous intersections. Mr. Brixius continued saying there are several other specific limitation problems in the bicycle plan, but most of which could be overcome as time progressed. He stated that he found the plan to be in his opinion, quite good and thorough. Its other limitation was it did not go far enough in connecting different park functions to major areas of the community. As a result he saw the need to make some additional trail connections to accomplish this. He suggested possible trails that would establish interconnections with several parks and neighborhood areas. In response to a question from Mr. Martin in regards to the graphics shown, Mr. Brixius commented on the problems defined and marked saying many could be overcome as long as the need to understand and recognize it at this time was understood. In referring to the horse and snowmobile possibilities, Mr. Brixius stated that he was having some problems in developing a usable trail system. He stated that the major problem was the danger of crossing intersections as well as the proposed 35 -E right -of -way. He continued that there was also some problems with the sanitation issue within certain areas for horses and for safety of trail users where joint usage was probable. He stated that existing usage were limited to the highline trail. In investigating the use of utilities and right -of -ways, only Northern Natural Gas saw a problem with the use of the right -of -way as it related to snowmobiles. He related that representatives of the firm were concerned for the compaction of snow, erosion and a number of safety factors relative to them. Mr. Brixius referred to the tactic study, the objectives desired and other problems encountered. He suggested that other alternatives might have to be looked at if trails are to be developed within the system, such as private property, the highline trail, the regional parks or other large community parks. Mr. Brixius then pointed out several problems inherent in a trail systems to Fort Snelling State Park. Committee member Masin asked if there were snowmobile trails at Blackhawk Park would the cross country ski trails have to go? Mr. Brixius said with the current planning of trails, that would be the case. Mr. Fedde commented that from this preliminary discussion he would be strongly opposed to snowmobile trails in any large community parks and saw some serious problems in pro- viding access to regional park systems within the City. Mr. Martin clarified what he thought the snowmobile people were looking forward to. And stated that he felt that as the community grew it would be less and less possible to accommodate them. However, the City should attempt to provide a trail system if at all possible. Committee member Masin stated that she agreed, but she did not wish to see community parks used in this purpose as it would be incompatible with other neighborhood use. In re- sponse to a question, Mr. Erkkila stated that there was just no way that Advisory Parks F Recreation Committee Minutes Special Meeting November 18, 1982 Page 7 that the community could use off road areas to get to the major access points for trails at present, and that there were no simple alternatives. The Advisory Committee then looked at potential alternative routes for snow- mobiles to utilize. A comment was made by the Advisory Committee that the snowmobile trails would simply be a way of providing a convenience to get from residential locations to trails and that it was not a recreational opportunity. Mr. Brixius continued saying that there were similar concerns for horse trails which were very similar to that of snowmobiles. He stated that the issue was to gain access to Fort Snelling State Park. Mr. Erkkila inter- jected that the use of road right -of -ways for this purpose seemed insur- mountable because of the need to acquire additional road right -of -ways and such cost would be extremely high and perhaps prohibitive. Committee member Martin stated that perhaps there is the same relationship to cost to the number.of users as we have with tennis courts. Mr. Brixius stated that the tactic study suggested limited basis for horse trails until the City develops. The alternative to this is to provide private facilities and encourage its use. The utilization of the highline trails or limited use in specific park locations such as Blackhawk or Patrick Eagan. He stated that the problem with this is providing routes even to these locations. The Advisory Committee discussed at great length some of the concerns and issues and the desire to provide horse and snowmobile trails into certain areas, The Advisory Committee then heard Mr. Brixius discuss additional items concerning the existing trail system for possible inclusion. He suggested that additional signage be included indicating such items as destination, signage for trail clarity, alternate routes and the like. He also continued saying that the community has shown considerable interest in exercise trails and suggested that a more suitable location be within a park rather than within the highline trail, stating that it would be necessary to provide a loop system to fully benefit from such an exercise system. The highline trail would make it difficult to do that and therefore an alternative location should first be reviewed. The final element, Mr. Brixius commented upon, was utilization of park areas for all terrain vehicles and motorized and non motorized mini bikes. It was his understanding that the community does not wish to provide this type of recreational resource and that could be or should be part of the Lebanon Hills Regional Park. Mr. Brixius commented that he would double check on this item and see if indeed it had been included in their comprehensive plan. The Advisory Committee had several additional questions regarding the bicycle, snowmobile and horse trail plans which the consultants will take under advise- ment. Mr. Erkkila stated that at this time the planning process was somewhat behind the anticipated schedule and that the Advisory Committee has met regularly Advisory Parks F Recreation Committee Minutes Special Meeting November 18, 1982 Page 8 on a number of issues and has reviewed a tremendous amount of information that requires assimilation. Chairman Martin stated that he to recognized that the system study was behind its original anticipated schedule but perhaps this was the fault of the schedule and certainly not a part of the efforts in the planning process. Mr. Martin continued saying that while the public meetings should have been scheduled for this fall that he would like to see them not scheduled between now and the first of the year, preferring to wait until mid or late January or February. Mr. Erkkila stated that the next process would be to continue to refine the work done on the ponds and lakes studies and as well as the trails plan. He felt that he would not need to meet with the Advisory Committee at a special meeting in December but would wait until January. ADJOURNMENT There being no other business for the Advisory Committee to discuss the special meeting of the Advisory Parks and Recreation Committee was adjourned at 9:30 P.M. Dated: ee rY crea i Secretary on Comm K.L.V.