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12/02/1982 - Advisory Parks & Recreation CommissionMINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF THE ADVISORY PARKS AND RECREATION COMMITTEE EAGAN, MINNESOTA DECEMBER 2, 1982 The regular meeting of the Advisory Parks and Recreation Committee was held on December 2, 1982 at the Eagan City Hall. Those members present were Martin, Thurston, Kubik, McNeely, Schumaker, Carroll and Masin. Absent were Fedde and Gustafson. Also present was the Director of Parks and Recreation. AGENDA Adoption of agenda, motion Carroll, seconded by Kubik, with all members in favor, the agenda for the December meeting was approved with the addition of a report by the Director of Parks and Recreation regarding proposed legislative changes in parks dedication at the State level. MINUTES On a motion by Masin, seconded by McNeely, with all members voting in favor, the minutes from the November 4, 1982 regular meeting of the Parks and Recreation Committee were approved. OLD BUSINESS ANNUAL REVIEW: PARKS DEDICATION Chairman Martin asked if all members had an opportunity to review the informa- tion as provided in their packet in regards to the parks dedication issue. And, the memo that was prepared by Mr. Erkkila. He asked the director what the limits were in regards to a time frame for action by the City Council enacting any changes in the dedication ordinance? The Director of Parks and Recreation responded saying that the council would be meeting the 18th of January to discuss any changes in "fees and charges" and this may be acted upon at that time, or at such time as you would like to get it to them. At this time committee member Carroll distributed a draft of a motion to the Advisory Committee indicating that he felt that some preparatory work for the committee would help to clarify issues in regards to parks dedication and speed the work of the committee. He continued saying there are some rough areas within the draft motion and hoped the committee would review thoroughly. Chairman Martin asked the committee members to take a few moments to carefully read the motion before beginning discussion on it. Committee member Masin commented that from reading the materials presented in the packet, that this motion, seemed well thought out. She was in favor of a commercial and industrial parks dedication but had some concerns about the percentages of dedication to he charged. Committee member Thurston questioned the current range of residential dedication in Eagan compared to other communities shown by Mr. Erkkila, stating that several other communities were equal to or had higher rates than Eagan. The committee then reviewed each communities residential parks dedication in relationship to Eagan and after additional discussion and deliberation, a consensus agreement that existing parks dedication in Eagan for 1983 should remain unchanged from 1982. Members based this on the fact that there was little change in market value of residential property during 1982. Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee December 2, 1982 Page 2 Committee member Carroll, in response to the chairman, continued to review the motion for the committee. He indicated that past research and review by the committee along with the materials as presented from Mr. Erkkila, and information provided by the Director of Parks and Recreation; that he felt the timing for commercial and industrial parks dedication seemed appropriate. He continued saying that Eagan appears to be set for continuous and steady commercial and industrial growth because of the Cedar Avenue, 494 and I 35 -E. After additional discussion by the Advisory Committee, committee member Carroll commented that he believed they needed some additional backup materials for presentation to the council. He suggested developing a chart for the proposed commercial and industrial dedication, because it would help explain the impact of that dedication. Committee member Thurston commented that objections in the past to commercial and industrial dedication has been that it would discourage such growth in the community. Committee member Carroll responded that information gathered from other communities says that this objection is not necessarily a valid argument, indicating that several communities have stated that quality firms have continued to move into their communities despite a strong parks dedication requirements. Committee member Thurston indicated that she and others have long believed that a dedication ordinance on commercial and industrial should have been in effect, and that it would not have had a negative affect on commercial and /or industrial growth. Committee member Kubik questioned the definition of what assessable land is? His thought was that there could be wide variance between parcels in rezoned or changed to commercial and industrial. This change could affect the computa- tion of the cash and industrial dedication. Committee member Martin suggested it may have to be changed to reflect an average value on commercial and industrial property, as is done in the residential dedication formula. In re- sponse to a question from the committee, committee member Thurston stated she thought current values of commercial and industrial property in Eagan were per- haps in the range of up to $20,000 per acre and higher. Members were in agreement that this value should be researched further by staff so an average value could be determined. There was additional discussion by the Advisory Committee concerning the financial obligation for community parks and facilities. The committee was in consensus agreement with the feeling that, as had been pointed out in the comprehensive guide plan and in the current systems study, that neighborhood parks should be adequately addressed through the residential parks dedication ordinance. They continued indicating that community facilities however, would need an additional source of funding beyond limitations of any potential bond issue. Committee member Thurston said that while she was in support of the commercial and industrial dedication and sees a need for it her concern is that many others may not share this concern and view of the need. Committee members McNeely, Masin and Kubik expressed their recognition of the need for parks dedication. In response to a concern, it was reasoned that the community has not had a parks dedication in the past because of the history for concern of the broadening of the tax base in Eagan. Their was the attractiveness for commercial and industrial growth to stabilize the community. However, this is now turned around and other factors are more significant for the continuation of this growth and development. Mr. Carroll went on saying that the Advisory Committee has been Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee December 2, 1982 Page 3 charged with the responsibility of reviewing park needs by the City Council, and the Advisory Committee has the responsibility to fulfill that role as best it could. He suggested that in the best interest of Eagan's future the committee needs to carefully consider and pass on to the City Council its recommendations in regards to commercial and industrial dedication. Chairman Martin reminded the Advisory Committee it needed to again clarify the assessed valuation terminology and proceed on. After discussion several attempts at rephrasing the term, "assessed valuation ", the Advisory Committee reached an agreement that the motion should he changed to reflect, "average value as determined by the City Council reflecting the average assessed valua- tion of undeveloped properties in Eagan." The committee members then proceeded to review in detail each segment of the draft motion for discussion and modifi- cation. Committee member Martin stated that percentages of parks dedication, in relationship to an entire project, would be extremely small. Committee member Kubik commented that in his position he see's a number of industries promote the quality of life in Minnesota and the green space for parks. He stated that many high tech companies use this to attract capable individuals. These companies are willing to participate in insuring that the quality of life and green space is maintained. After further discussion by the Advisory Committee in regards to the proposed motion, and modifications had been completed, a second to the motion was offered by Mr. Martin. All members voted in favor of the revised motion, with appropriate backup materials be sent to the City Council for consideration of a commercial /industrial parks dedication. Chairman Martin stated on behalf of he and the rest of the members of the committee, their appreciation for the forethought and work that Mr. Carroll had done; complimenting him on the excellent job in preparing the draft motion. BRAINSTORAMING The Director of Parks and Recreation gave the committee a few minutes to write down on a separate sheet of paper significant concerns and objectives as it related to recreational needs within the community. He further explained the process of the brainstorming technique. Members of the committee set about the task and then divided into two separate groups and shared their ideas collectively, then prioritized those comments. After approximately one hour of individual and group discussions, the two groups shared their ideas collectively. Mr. Carroll commented that in the process there appeared that both groups had similar ideas in many instances. The director commented that being the case, apparently the need for such a program appears to be quite strong and as both groups rate them high in priority. He continued saying that it was his intent to take these suggestions and begin to do some initial investigation and review to see which of these programs the department might be able to offer in the near future. Other suggestions may be forwarded to other communities agencies for their implementation. POND AND LAKE STUDIES The Director of Parks and Recreation said he would like to take a few minutes to review the matrix which was included in the packet concerning the ponds and lakes. Chairman Martin said he would like to proceed column by column to ascertain if there were any problems or questions and provide as much direction to Mr. Erkkila at this time so at least some work could proceed. Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee December 2, 1982 Page 4 In regards to use of ponds for swimming, members stated no objection to the proposed recommendations by Mr. Erkkila. However, after a great deal of discussion by the Advisory members concerning liability factors, posting or not posting certain ponds for "no swimming," Chariman Martin asked the Director of Parks and Recreation to review this issue with the City Attorney to obtain an opinion before the committee makes a final determination. Mr. Kubik commented that it was his opinion that none of the lakes were of suitable size and water quality that the City should maintain or develop a suitable swimming area and that future swimming opportunities would have to lie elsewhere. Committee member Carroll stated that as it relates to fishing, that he would suggest the Advisory Committee and the City adopt a stance which would provide wherever possible or where there is an opportunity to provide fishing, the City do so. Mr. Kubik commented that he agreed with this and concurred with the recommendations made by Mr. Erkkila. There was additional discussion on each of the lakes recommended for the utilization of fishing ponds, and a question regarding the terminology of intensive management. The Director of Parks and Recreation stated that from his meetings with Barr Engineering and Mr. Erkkila it was the intent of the terminology that intensive management was to cover such needs as aerification of certain ponds and lake areas to ensure there would be no freeze out of the fish population. He also suggested that this would mean any special effort that may be required for lake clean- up, shore line management, upstream management, etc. The director also commented that this terminology was felt appropriate in that some fishing ponds could be utilized now with no effort other than building a suitable ramp or access point. The second group of lakes would require some additional effort by the City to insure that they could be utilized in such a manner, thus intensive management. The members were in agreement regarding the fishing were the opportunities for doing so were appropriate. The committee asked that the term "intensive management" be made clear within the final plans. As it related to boat ramps, the committee had no objections to the recommenda- tions at this time. Committee member Thurston questioned what a developed boat ramp may be like? It was suggested that such a ramp for boating could or would be different at each location depending upon the type of facility that may be appropriate. The director commented that in case of canoeing it may simply mean a designated landing area which has been kept free from weeds while in other situations it may include more sophisticated ramp access up to and possibly including a surfaced area or one constructed of timber materials. The committee then discussed the policy or practice of the City as it related to the size of these facilities. Committee member Carroll and Kubik questioned the size of the proposed parking at Thomas Lake. The director responded that he too was somewhat surprised at that number and related how a formula was developed which provided these numbers in the recommendation. He suggested thatthis would need further review and was dependent upon land forms. At this time this had not been referenced. The director suggested that the committee needed to address itself to the question of limiting park- ing to a number which could be safely handled by the lake or whether to provide and expand these parking facilities to its maximum. The committee was in unanimous agreement that the City should adopt a practice whereby boating facilities should be developed but which would limit the number of parking Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee December 2, 1982 Page 5 spaces and hence protect the overuse of the lake, as opposed to a development to the maximum based on the lake surface formula. The director was also asked to review, in future concept plans and in greater detail, the appropriate- ness of parking as it relates to the park. The committee then moved on to the discussion of the boats and motors. Committee member Martin stated that at the special meeting he had voiced his objection to use of gas motors above 6 H.P. on City lakes. He reiterated this explaining that he was also now in objection to the use of any gas'motors at all on these lakes sharing his concern for disruption to lake bodies, safety factors, relationship of motors to size of boats and administration of the 6 H.P. limit. Committee member Kubik stated that he too was in agreement, the City should not allow gas powered motors on lakes. There was additional discussion by the Advisory Committee concerning this as they reviewed various lake sizes, boating safety, uses of the motors by boat users and several other factors. Following this discussion members of the Advisory Committee were in agreement that boats and motors over 6 H.P. should be eliminated from City lakes, and, there was general agreement that gas motors as a total should be eliminated. Committee member Thurston questioned the status and implications concerning electric motors. Committee member Kubik commented that previously electric motors were quite small and used strictly for trolling purposes, however, they are now becoming larger in size. There were several questions regarding the thrust- ing power of the electric motors, potential speed, and other uses. Committee member Thurston questioned the purposes other than trolling that motors might be used for on City lakes. She felt that they might only be used for fishing and /or just general to and from movement. The Director of Parks and Recreation responded that administratively it would be very difficult as it was discussed with the use of gas motors of less than 6 H.P., to determine that H.P. rating from the shoreline for a boat out in the lake. He suggested that some further research and review could be done concerning the size of electric motors, potential speed and thrust for presentation at the next committee meeting. Members were in agreement and asked the director to proceed with this work. The committee then reviewed proposed shore facilities. The Director of Parks and Recreation commented that this was a general category which to try to show the implications of providing the previously mentioned items. He suggested that each of these would be reviewed and have to be finalized by the Advisory Committee at the time of implementRtion and development. He suggested this would be refined by the consultant and the Advisory Committee before final adoption. Chairman Martin questioned what the impact of any ordinance would have regulating the use of ponds not owned or without access to it by the City? The Director of Parks and Recreation responded that as he understood the question, the City has the authority to control by ordinance where there is a concern for the general health and safety of the community. Committee member Thurston commented that she was also concerned for other types of motorized activities on City lakes referring to one person powered skis, and large balloon tired vehicles. The director responded that he gathered from the inferences of the committee previously that these items would also be restricted from use on City ponds and lakes. After additional discussion concerning the implementation and implications of the ponds and lake studies the committee agreed to postpone additional discussion and other policy issues regarding winter lake /pond usage to the January Advisory Committee. Minutes December 2, 1982 Page 6 SNOWMOBILE REQUEST The Director of Parks and Recreation presented to the Advisory Committee a request from the local snowmobile organization for the use of the highline corridor trail from Nicols Road to Pilot Knob Road and from the highline south on Johnny Cake Ridge Road to the Eagan -Apple Valley border. The director said that there were several concerns regarding this and he elaborated on. He stated that I 35 -E Blackhawk and highline construction problem, the intensification of traffic along Johnny Cake Ridge Road and Cliff Road as the result of the closing of Cedar Avenue in Apple Valley, and in the conflict between Apple Valley and Eagan ordinances relating to vehicles on boulevards along Johnny Cake. Committee member Kubik asked for an explanation of the current ordinance used for snowmobiles within the community? Committee member Thurston questioned what the success of the trail was last year? The director responded that generally speaking it was successful, although there were certain problems encountered which is typical of any type of recreational function. He stated that this was generally the abuse of some people of the privilege to use these snowmobile trails. The director was asked to elaborate on these problem areas, he summarized as going off the designated trail, the lack of safety crossing roads and the like. Committee member Martin expressed his concern for the use of snowmobiles in the Thomas Lake area because of the sensitivity of the native prairie. He commented that he had noted that last year there were numerous snowmobile marks and trails through the area and across Thomas Lake which he considered to be disruptive and dangerous. There was general discussion concerning the problem of traffic and crossing of Johnny Cake Road prior to gaining access to Lebanon Hills Regional Park. The director then reviewed with the Advisory Committee in some detail the factors and facets of the request. Committee member McNeely commented that perhaps because of the liability factors involved and the amount of traffic on the two roads mentioned, that the recommendation might be just simply to allow the use of the highline trail from Nicols Road to Rahn Road. Members expressed concern where the trail ended without the provision for a safe crossing of roads. After further discussion, there was a motion by McNeely, seconded by Kubik to recommend that the council allow the use of the highline trail for a period of one year with all other conditions as applied last year. That the trail extend from Rahn Road to Pilot Knob Road. Further, because of the intensity of traffic along Johnny Cake Ridge Road and Cliff Road, that this not be a recommended portion for the trail. All members agreed. OTHER BUSINESS The director responded that he would be brief because of the lateness of the hour and related that all the winter program activities were ready to go with the completion of hiring warming house attendants. He briefly reviewed other aspects for the committee's attention. The director stated the City would be utilizing the services of a volunteer in the office. This volunteer is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin and would be working approximately 20 to 25 hours per week for the City. This individuals name is Michelle Meyers and is a resident of Apple Valley. The director commented that a proposal, apparently from planners from Bloomington, to the next legislative session, would be to allow the use of cash parks dedica- tion to be used for low income housing. The director explained the potential impact. Chairman Martin asked that this item appear on the next committee's agenda for discussion or at such time as there is a specific proposal. Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee December 2, 1982 Page 7 There being no other business for the Advisory Committee to conduct the meeting was adjourned at 10 :40 P.M. Dated: , ADJOURNMENT K.L.V. Adv sort' Parks A Recreation Committee Secretary