12/02/1982 - Advisory Parks & Recreation CommissionMINUTES OF A REGULAR MEETING OF THE ADVISORY PARKS AND RECREATION COMMITTEE
EAGAN, MINNESOTA
DECEMBER 2, 1982
The regular meeting of the Advisory Parks and Recreation Committee was held
on December 2, 1982 at the Eagan City Hall. Those members present were Martin,
Thurston, Kubik, McNeely, Schumaker, Carroll and Masin. Absent were Fedde
and Gustafson. Also present was the Director of Parks and Recreation.
AGENDA
Adoption of agenda, motion Carroll, seconded by Kubik, with all members in
favor, the agenda for the December meeting was approved with the addition
of a report by the Director of Parks and Recreation regarding proposed
legislative changes in parks dedication at the State level.
MINUTES
On a motion by Masin, seconded by McNeely, with all members voting in favor,
the minutes from the November 4, 1982 regular meeting of the Parks and
Recreation Committee were approved.
OLD BUSINESS
ANNUAL REVIEW: PARKS DEDICATION
Chairman Martin asked if all members had an opportunity to review the informa-
tion as provided in their packet in regards to the parks dedication issue.
And, the memo that was prepared by Mr. Erkkila. He asked the director what
the limits were in regards to a time frame for action by the City Council
enacting any changes in the dedication ordinance? The Director of Parks and
Recreation responded saying that the council would be meeting the 18th of
January to discuss any changes in "fees and charges" and this may be acted
upon at that time, or at such time as you would like to get it to them. At
this time committee member Carroll distributed a draft of a motion to the
Advisory Committee indicating that he felt that some preparatory work for the
committee would help to clarify issues in regards to parks dedication and speed
the work of the committee. He continued saying there are some rough areas
within the draft motion and hoped the committee would review thoroughly.
Chairman Martin asked the committee members to take a few moments to carefully
read the motion before beginning discussion on it. Committee member Masin
commented that from reading the materials presented in the packet, that this
motion, seemed well thought out. She was in favor of a commercial and industrial
parks dedication but had some concerns about the percentages of dedication to
he charged. Committee member Thurston questioned the current range of residential
dedication in Eagan compared to other communities shown by Mr. Erkkila, stating
that several other communities were equal to or had higher rates than Eagan.
The committee then reviewed each communities residential parks dedication in
relationship to Eagan and after additional discussion and deliberation, a
consensus agreement that existing parks dedication in Eagan for 1983 should
remain unchanged from 1982. Members based this on the fact that there was
little change in market value of residential property during 1982.
Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee
December 2, 1982
Page 2
Committee member Carroll, in response to the chairman, continued to review
the motion for the committee. He indicated that past research and review
by the committee along with the materials as presented from Mr. Erkkila,
and information provided by the Director of Parks and Recreation; that he
felt the timing for commercial and industrial parks dedication seemed
appropriate. He continued saying that Eagan appears to be set for continuous
and steady commercial and industrial growth because of the Cedar Avenue,
494 and I 35 -E. After additional discussion by the Advisory Committee,
committee member Carroll commented that he believed they needed some additional
backup materials for presentation to the council. He suggested developing
a chart for the proposed commercial and industrial dedication, because it
would help explain the impact of that dedication. Committee member Thurston
commented that objections in the past to commercial and industrial dedication
has been that it would discourage such growth in the community. Committee
member Carroll responded that information gathered from other communities says
that this objection is not necessarily a valid argument, indicating that several
communities have stated that quality firms have continued to move into their
communities despite a strong parks dedication requirements. Committee member
Thurston indicated that she and others have long believed that a dedication
ordinance on commercial and industrial should have been in effect, and that
it would not have had a negative affect on commercial and /or industrial growth.
Committee member Kubik questioned the definition of what assessable land is?
His thought was that there could be wide variance between parcels in rezoned
or changed to commercial and industrial. This change could affect the computa-
tion of the cash and industrial dedication. Committee member Martin suggested
it may have to be changed to reflect an average value on commercial and
industrial property, as is done in the residential dedication formula. In re-
sponse to a question from the committee, committee member Thurston stated she
thought current values of commercial and industrial property in Eagan were per-
haps in the range of up to $20,000 per acre and higher.
Members were in agreement that this value should be researched further by staff
so an average value could be determined.
There was additional discussion by the Advisory Committee concerning the financial
obligation for community parks and facilities. The committee was in consensus
agreement with the feeling that, as had been pointed out in the comprehensive
guide plan and in the current systems study, that neighborhood parks should
be adequately addressed through the residential parks dedication ordinance.
They continued indicating that community facilities however, would need an
additional source of funding beyond limitations of any potential bond issue.
Committee member Thurston said that while she was in support of the commercial
and industrial dedication and sees a need for it her concern is that many others
may not share this concern and view of the need. Committee members McNeely,
Masin and Kubik expressed their recognition of the need for parks dedication.
In response to a concern, it was reasoned that the community has not had a parks
dedication in the past because of the history for concern of the broadening of
the tax base in Eagan. Their was the attractiveness for commercial and industrial
growth to stabilize the community. However, this is now turned around and
other factors are more significant for the continuation of this growth and
development. Mr. Carroll went on saying that the Advisory Committee has been
Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee
December 2, 1982
Page 3
charged with the responsibility of reviewing park needs by the City Council,
and the Advisory Committee has the responsibility to fulfill that role as
best it could. He suggested that in the best interest of Eagan's future
the committee needs to carefully consider and pass on to the City Council
its recommendations in regards to commercial and industrial dedication.
Chairman Martin reminded the Advisory Committee it needed to again clarify
the assessed valuation terminology and proceed on. After discussion several
attempts at rephrasing the term, "assessed valuation ", the Advisory Committee
reached an agreement that the motion should he changed to reflect, "average
value as determined by the City Council reflecting the average assessed valua-
tion of undeveloped properties in Eagan." The committee members then proceeded
to review in detail each segment of the draft motion for discussion and modifi-
cation. Committee member Martin stated that percentages of parks dedication,
in relationship to an entire project, would be extremely small. Committee
member Kubik commented that in his position he see's a number of industries
promote the quality of life in Minnesota and the green space for parks. He
stated that many high tech companies use this to attract capable individuals.
These companies are willing to participate in insuring that the quality of
life and green space is maintained. After further discussion by the Advisory
Committee in regards to the proposed motion, and modifications had been
completed, a second to the motion was offered by Mr. Martin. All members voted
in favor of the revised motion, with appropriate backup materials be sent to
the City Council for consideration of a commercial /industrial parks dedication.
Chairman Martin stated on behalf of he and the rest of the members of the
committee, their appreciation for the forethought and work that Mr. Carroll
had done; complimenting him on the excellent job in preparing the draft motion.
BRAINSTORAMING
The Director of Parks and Recreation gave the committee a few minutes to write
down on a separate sheet of paper significant concerns and objectives as it
related to recreational needs within the community. He further explained the
process of the brainstorming technique. Members of the committee set about
the task and then divided into two separate groups and shared their ideas
collectively, then prioritized those comments. After approximately one hour
of individual and group discussions, the two groups shared their ideas
collectively. Mr. Carroll commented that in the process there appeared that
both groups had similar ideas in many instances. The director commented that
being the case, apparently the need for such a program appears to be quite
strong and as both groups rate them high in priority. He continued saying
that it was his intent to take these suggestions and begin to do some initial
investigation and review to see which of these programs the department might
be able to offer in the near future. Other suggestions may be forwarded to
other communities agencies for their implementation.
POND AND LAKE STUDIES
The Director of Parks and Recreation said he would like to take a few minutes
to review the matrix which was included in the packet concerning the ponds
and lakes. Chairman Martin said he would like to proceed column by column to
ascertain if there were any problems or questions and provide as much direction
to Mr. Erkkila at this time so at least some work could proceed.
Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee
December 2, 1982
Page 4
In regards to use of ponds for swimming, members stated no objection to the
proposed recommendations by Mr. Erkkila. However, after a great deal of
discussion by the Advisory members concerning liability factors, posting or
not posting certain ponds for "no swimming," Chariman Martin asked the
Director of Parks and Recreation to review this issue with the City Attorney
to obtain an opinion before the committee makes a final determination. Mr.
Kubik commented that it was his opinion that none of the lakes were of
suitable size and water quality that the City should maintain or develop
a suitable swimming area and that future swimming opportunities would have
to lie elsewhere.
Committee member Carroll stated that as it relates to fishing, that he would
suggest the Advisory Committee and the City adopt a stance which would provide
wherever possible or where there is an opportunity to provide fishing, the
City do so. Mr. Kubik commented that he agreed with this and concurred with
the recommendations made by Mr. Erkkila. There was additional discussion
on each of the lakes recommended for the utilization of fishing ponds, and
a question regarding the terminology of intensive management. The Director
of Parks and Recreation stated that from his meetings with Barr Engineering
and Mr. Erkkila it was the intent of the terminology that intensive management
was to cover such needs as aerification of certain ponds and lake areas to
ensure there would be no freeze out of the fish population. He also suggested
that this would mean any special effort that may be required for lake clean-
up, shore line management, upstream management, etc. The director also
commented that this terminology was felt appropriate in that some fishing
ponds could be utilized now with no effort other than building a suitable
ramp or access point. The second group of lakes would require some additional
effort by the City to insure that they could be utilized in such a manner,
thus intensive management. The members were in agreement regarding the fishing
were the opportunities for doing so were appropriate. The committee asked that
the term "intensive management" be made clear within the final plans.
As it related to boat ramps, the committee had no objections to the recommenda-
tions at this time. Committee member Thurston questioned what a developed
boat ramp may be like? It was suggested that such a ramp for boating could
or would be different at each location depending upon the type of facility
that may be appropriate. The director commented that in case of canoeing
it may simply mean a designated landing area which has been kept free from
weeds while in other situations it may include more sophisticated ramp access
up to and possibly including a surfaced area or one constructed of timber
materials. The committee then discussed the policy or practice of the City
as it related to the size of these facilities. Committee member Carroll and
Kubik questioned the size of the proposed parking at Thomas Lake. The director
responded that he too was somewhat surprised at that number and related how
a formula was developed which provided these numbers in the recommendation.
He suggested thatthis would need further review and was dependent upon land
forms. At this time this had not been referenced. The director suggested
that the committee needed to address itself to the question of limiting park-
ing to a number which could be safely handled by the lake or whether to provide
and expand these parking facilities to its maximum. The committee was in
unanimous agreement that the City should adopt a practice whereby boating
facilities should be developed but which would limit the number of parking
Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee
December 2, 1982
Page 5
spaces and hence protect the overuse of the lake, as opposed to a development
to the maximum based on the lake surface formula. The director was also
asked to review, in future concept plans and in greater detail, the appropriate-
ness of parking as it relates to the park. The committee then moved on to
the discussion of the boats and motors. Committee member Martin stated that
at the special meeting he had voiced his objection to use of gas motors above
6 H.P. on City lakes. He reiterated this explaining that he was also now in
objection to the use of any gas'motors at all on these lakes sharing his
concern for disruption to lake bodies, safety factors, relationship of motors
to size of boats and administration of the 6 H.P. limit. Committee member
Kubik stated that he too was in agreement, the City should not allow gas
powered motors on lakes. There was additional discussion by the Advisory
Committee concerning this as they reviewed various lake sizes, boating
safety, uses of the motors by boat users and several other factors. Following
this discussion members of the Advisory Committee were in agreement that boats
and motors over 6 H.P. should be eliminated from City lakes, and, there was
general agreement that gas motors as a total should be eliminated. Committee
member Thurston questioned the status and implications concerning electric
motors. Committee member Kubik commented that previously electric motors
were quite small and used strictly for trolling purposes, however, they are
now becoming larger in size. There were several questions regarding the thrust-
ing power of the electric motors, potential speed, and other uses. Committee
member Thurston questioned the purposes other than trolling that motors might
be used for on City lakes. She felt that they might only be used for fishing
and /or just general to and from movement. The Director of Parks and Recreation
responded that administratively it would be very difficult as it was discussed
with the use of gas motors of less than 6 H.P., to determine that H.P. rating
from the shoreline for a boat out in the lake. He suggested that some further
research and review could be done concerning the size of electric motors,
potential speed and thrust for presentation at the next committee meeting.
Members were in agreement and asked the director to proceed with this work.
The committee then reviewed proposed shore facilities. The Director of Parks
and Recreation commented that this was a general category which to try to show
the implications of providing the previously mentioned items. He suggested
that each of these would be reviewed and have to be finalized by the Advisory
Committee at the time of implementRtion and development. He suggested this would
be refined by the consultant and the Advisory Committee before final adoption.
Chairman Martin questioned what the impact of any ordinance would have regulating
the use of ponds not owned or without access to it by the City? The Director
of Parks and Recreation responded that as he understood the question, the City
has the authority to control by ordinance where there is a concern for the
general health and safety of the community. Committee member Thurston commented
that she was also concerned for other types of motorized activities on City
lakes referring to one person powered skis, and large balloon tired vehicles.
The director responded that he gathered from the inferences of the committee
previously that these items would also be restricted from use on City ponds and
lakes. After additional discussion concerning the implementation and implications
of the ponds and lake studies the committee agreed to postpone additional
discussion and other policy issues regarding winter lake /pond usage to the
January Advisory Committee.
Minutes
December 2, 1982
Page 6
SNOWMOBILE REQUEST
The Director of Parks and Recreation presented to the Advisory Committee a
request from the local snowmobile organization for the use of the highline
corridor trail from Nicols Road to Pilot Knob Road and from the highline
south on Johnny Cake Ridge Road to the Eagan -Apple Valley border. The
director said that there were several concerns regarding this and he elaborated
on. He stated that I 35 -E Blackhawk and highline construction problem, the
intensification of traffic along Johnny Cake Ridge Road and Cliff Road as
the result of the closing of Cedar Avenue in Apple Valley, and in the conflict
between Apple Valley and Eagan ordinances relating to vehicles on boulevards
along Johnny Cake. Committee member Kubik asked for an explanation of the
current ordinance used for snowmobiles within the community? Committee
member Thurston questioned what the success of the trail was last year? The
director responded that generally speaking it was successful, although there
were certain problems encountered which is typical of any type of recreational
function. He stated that this was generally the abuse of some people of the
privilege to use these snowmobile trails. The director was asked to elaborate
on these problem areas, he summarized as going off the designated trail, the
lack of safety crossing roads and the like. Committee member Martin expressed
his concern for the use of snowmobiles in the Thomas Lake area because of the
sensitivity of the native prairie. He commented that he had noted that last
year there were numerous snowmobile marks and trails through the area and
across Thomas Lake which he considered to be disruptive and dangerous. There
was general discussion concerning the problem of traffic and crossing of Johnny
Cake Road prior to gaining access to Lebanon Hills Regional Park. The director
then reviewed with the Advisory Committee in some detail the factors and facets
of the request. Committee member McNeely commented that perhaps because of the
liability factors involved and the amount of traffic on the two roads mentioned,
that the recommendation might be just simply to allow the use of the highline
trail from Nicols Road to Rahn Road. Members expressed concern where the
trail ended without the provision for a safe crossing of roads. After further
discussion, there was a motion by McNeely, seconded by Kubik to recommend that
the council allow the use of the highline trail for a period of one year with
all other conditions as applied last year. That the trail extend from Rahn
Road to Pilot Knob Road. Further, because of the intensity of traffic along
Johnny Cake Ridge Road and Cliff Road, that this not be a recommended portion
for the trail. All members agreed.
OTHER BUSINESS
The director responded that he would be brief because of the lateness of the
hour and related that all the winter program activities were ready to go with
the completion of hiring warming house attendants. He briefly reviewed other
aspects for the committee's attention.
The director stated the City would be utilizing the services of a volunteer in
the office. This volunteer is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin and
would be working approximately 20 to 25 hours per week for the City. This
individuals name is Michelle Meyers and is a resident of Apple Valley.
The director commented that a proposal, apparently from planners from Bloomington,
to the next legislative session, would be to allow the use of cash parks dedica-
tion to be used for low income housing. The director explained the potential
impact. Chairman Martin asked that this item appear on the next committee's
agenda for discussion or at such time as there is a specific proposal.
Minutes of a Regular Meeting of the Advisory Committee
December 2, 1982
Page 7
There being no other business for the Advisory Committee to conduct the meeting
was adjourned at 10 :40 P.M.
Dated:
,
ADJOURNMENT
K.L.V.
Adv sort' Parks A Recreation Committee
Secretary